[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Wed Jun 22 15:11:26 UTC 2016
Hi,
I am sorry if my previous mail came over a bit harsh.
I appreciate that your background may be different from mine and the
situation in India may be different from the one in Europe. I take issue
with your suggestion that my horizon is limited by my origin though as I
have travelled and lived abroad quite a lot as well. I also take issue
with the continuous attempts to attempt to regulate content and abusive
use of the internet through domain names.
That aside and back to the topic though, I absolutely refuse to
compromise on issues of legal obligations and rights of both service
providers and those that they serve. As ICANN policy may not violate
national or international law, the requirements of the country with the
most protective privacy laws must form the basis for our deliberations.
Anything less than that maximum would put service providers in a
position where they may have to violate applicable law. If you in India
feel that German privacy laws go to far, that is just too bad, but that
is what is the law for us and therefore the measure that I will apply to
any suggestion made in this group. If that does not serve your national
security needs, I am sorry but whois policy was never intended to serve
national or regional security needs. Just like the presumption of
innocense means that some criminals will get away with it, the
protection of individual privacy rights will mean certain data will not
be accessible, no matter how desperately some security agencies want it.
If we compare it to another recent issue, I believe Apple was absolutely
right to refuse the demands made by the FBI.
I am confident that we as a working group will be able to achieve a
consensus position, however this will only be possible if this
discussion is devoid of attempts to regulate the internet. Replacing
whois with a new system is a daunting task already, let us not make it
impossible. Unlike a democracy, the majority does not decide the outcome
of a PDP, we need consensus. That aside, I am confident that the
majority of the group opposes the suggestions you have made.
Best regards,
Volker
Am 22.06.2016 um 16:45 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
> Volker,
>
> No you don’t take these threats seriously, as the tone and manner is
> appearing to be callous. Do I need to mention the crisis EU is going
> through right now ?
> I am avoiding writing to you in a particular manner but this is the
> second mail you have written in a superior manner and a showing down
> manner.
>
> So here is my take – Even if you want to to show that you represent a
> particular set of people – No you don’t. Your statement is skewed and
> can be shot at, any point in time as you represent Key Systems and
> there is a Conflict of interest for you to even be on this group.
> You can definitely give your inputs, but you do not have the right to
> make policy. You have business vested Interests. What you are writing
> in this WG mailing list, shud it be taken KEY SYSTEM’s Official Stand
> on the matter – in the same tone and reference? Please elaborate.
>
> Re Representations, your response is Patronizing, Aggressive and Harsh
> when compared to how I have worded my mail. NOT Discounting that I can
> pin you down anytime.
> Please consider I live in a region where I am living amongst 4 Billion
> People, not in your region. And I am well travelled globally, to
> consider the public policy environment in the west or the east or
> north or South. If you ever come to India in the ICANN 57, you will
> feel the heat yourself. This part of the world is a bit more
> complicated than where you are living – especially for security. So
> don’t be Patronising.
> BY way of your thoughts, it appears that you don’t get too much
> vacation. You have neither travelled to Africa, Nor Asia nor studied
> those regions. I will be happy to host you.
>
> Also, let’s be humble when we write in the list. Its been read around
> the world, by professionals who don’t have the time to read BS. At
> least I don’t.
>
> Back to the Topic, in two lines : Regarding the Point I made earlier,
> It is advisable to be Democratic in your approach, I have kept the
> point for a discussion, It is a requirement from my side if it get
> heard great – if not then this is not the last forum I would like to
> present this view point to. I have considerable influence elsewhere
> too. And I am a Contributor and Member of the WG as you are. I have
> the right to be heard, present my view point and Keep my Voice as you
> have and As the rest of us have. Who the hell is anyone to Rubbish
> what any of us say. Take it easy.
>
> So Chill and Relax !!
> Next time be professional and don’t be patronizing – its democracy not
> war.
>
> -VA
>
> From: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 7:31 PM
> To: Vaibhav Aggarwal <va at bladebrains.com <mailto:va at bladebrains.com>>,
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
>
> I take those threats seriously, but I take human rights and personal
> privacy rights just as seriously. If we give up our freedoms to stop a
> few madmen, we will have paid too high a price. If we go for the
> lowest common denominator, we will have paid too high a price.
>
> I also firmly oppose the inclusion of additional data that is not
> required for contactability of the domain owner, such as the social
> security number of the registrant. This is highly private information
> and we as service providers have no business asking for it just
> because someone wants a domain name. I never had to provide my SS
> number to Amazon, to Facebook, to my local phone company or the post
> office either and they provide their services to me. Similarly, asking
> for additional verification such as cell phone verification or govt
> issued IDs are non-starters.
>
> I would also dispute the notion that the registration of a domain name
> should in any way be compared to registering a tradmark in the TMCH.
> The two have nothing in common.
>
> Frankly, asking for additional privacy-relevant data to be included
> seems like an attempt to set this group up for failure since there is
> no way that it will gain consensus if that is included in the final
> recommendations.
>
> If this is your mission, prepared to be disappointed, no matter how
> many people you claim to represent.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 22.06.2016 um 15:28 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
>> Honestly by way of your reply, You probably don’t take the ISIS
>> threat or the The treat of Digital Terrorism seriously or relate to
>> it at all. I would like to request you to take a step back and
>> deliberate on my point not push your view point on the list.
>>
>> I will advocate that the NEXT-GEN requirement should include the
>> process where in during the completion of the purchase of a Domain
>> Name the Information related should be absolutely mapped to the
>> Social Security Number of the buyer – supported by a password
>> authentication on the buyer’s cell phone and verification of the
>> govt. Issued ID. It should be the Registry-Registrar relationship
>> responsibility to get this organized and certified by the respective
>> governments AND the data be made public, in-terms of the validations
>> made and rejections done. For authentication purpose, the procedure
>> could be the same as the TMCH undertakes. Validating the respective
>> trademarks. Infact, the process of buyer validation will be much
>> easier than that of the Trademark as most countries, either developed
>> or Developing, have the social Security format is one way or the
>> other, Digitized already and some kind of government facilitation is
>> available for the API’s to be integrated, if need to do so arises.
>>
>> As a Aware resident of this humble world, I need to be sure that my
>> Digital World is safe from threats. Rather, if this solution is
>> implemented in part of in full, Many Registries will save huge costs
>> on Network infrastructure as this will be able to deal with Internet
>> Spam and Domain-Squatting making it a clean register for the
>> registries to maintain.
>>
>> Customer Privacy is of pivotal Importance, but not more than Digital
>> Terrorism. In the wake of Free Speech and Privacy, we land up risking
>> the lives of our loved ones.
>> The Data can be made available for the investigating agencies but
>> that is so many times a long process, so there should be transparency
>> in the system, creating every view of such information private by way
>> of reader authentication. So if I want to read your Information or
>> access it, I need to log in, a Text Authentication, or create an
>> account by uploading my ID etc. etc. Take the example of Linkedin –
>> the Authentication Algorithm is good but there are so many cases of
>> wrongful display information in the user accounts there in too. But
>> on a Dating site like Tinder – It works as the Authentication has
>> checks built in – yet automated. Lets not make Internet an Uber –
>> where everyone runs amok.
>>
>> And Lastly, My right to Internet is More than yours perhaps as I
>> represent a MUCH larger set of population that you. So to speak so
>> lets not use the expression, and you quote - "If we start looking at
>> the countries which do not care about the privacy of their citizens,
>> then we will get nowhere. Only be adhering to a maximum standard can
>> we ensure that the result is workable for all providers and their
>> customers”, in isolation. We have to look at the Global Picture and
>> It is our endeavor to do “Best Practice Sharing” and make everyone
>> Grow, together. There is much to learn about the Universe – both On
>> the Earth and outside the earth.
>>
>> I look forward to deliberating on this further more.
>>
>> Best
>> -VA
>>
>> From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Volker
>> Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 4:36 PM
>> To: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
>>
>> Frankly, as a provider that is handing over private details of my
>> customer I do not care about anything less than the maximum required
>> protection in any jurisdiction that may be applicable. So what if the
>> states have lower privacy protection requirements than Europe and
>> India has none? The only acceptable result in my eyes is an
>> accomodation of the most extensive privacy protection level that may
>> be required.
>>
>> If we start looking at the countries which do not care about the
>> privacy of their citizens, then we will get nowhere. Only be adhering
>> to a maximum standard can we ensure that the result is workable for
>> all providers and their customers.
>>
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 22.06.2016 um 08:59 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
>>> Since India has no privacy laws, so this WG can perhaps deliberate
>>> more to accommodate and protect such countries where no legislation
>>> exists as such. This will allow the group to offer a wholistic, and
>>> long term policy perspective, justifying NEXT-GEN.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Vaibhav Aggarwal
>>> New Delhi
>>> TheVaibhav.com <http://thevaibhav.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Holly Raiche
>>> <h.raiche at internode.on.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 11:59 AM
>>> To: Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:carlton.samuels at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
>>>
>>> That is scary.
>>>
>>> The Australian legislation (Privacy Act 1988) has a much broader
>>> definition:
>>>
>>> personal information means information or an opinion about an
>>>
>>> identified individual, or an individual who is reasonably
>>>
>>> identifiable:
>>>
>>> (a) (a) whether the information or opinion is true or not; and
>>>
>>> (b) whether the information or opinion is recorded in a material
>>>
>>> (a) form or not.
>>>
>>> And the Privacy Commissioner ruled that the definition included meta
>>> data (that decision is being challenged, but then look at the EU as
>>> to meta data)
>>>
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 4:08 pm, Carlton Samuels
>>> <carlton.samuels at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Illinois Personal Information Protection Act
>>>> <http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2702&ChapAct=815%A0ILCS%A0530/&ChapterID=67&ChapterName=BUSINESS%20TRANSACTIONS&ActName=Personal%20Information%20Protection%20Act.>
>>>> might be of mild interest, particularly the definitions....and what
>>>> is excluded:
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>> |"Personal information" means an individual's first name or first
>>>> initial and last name in combination with any one or more of the
>>>> following data elements, when either the name or the data elements
>>>> are not encrypted or redacted: |
>>>> |||||(1) Social Security number. |
>>>> |||||(2) Driver's license number or State identification|
>>>> ||
>>>> |card number.|
>>>>
>>>> |||||(3) Account number or credit or debit card number, or|
>>>> ||
>>>> |an account number or credit card number in combination with any
>>>> required security code, access code, or password that would permit
>>>> access to an individual's financial account.|
>>>>
>>>> |"Personal information" does not include publicly available
>>>> information that is lawfully made available to the general public
>>>> from federal, State, or local government records. |||
>>>> |(Source: P.A. 97-483, eff. 1-1-12.)|
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Carlton
>>>>
>>>> ==============================
>>>> Carlton A Samuels
>>>> Mobile: 876-818-1799
>>>> /Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/
>>>> =============================
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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