[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Mp3, Attendance & AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG call 10 May 2016

Michelle DeSmyter michelle.desmyter at icann.org
Tue May 10 21:10:40 UTC 2016

Dear All,

Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call held on Tuesday, 10 May 2016 at 16:00 UTC.

Mp3: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-10may16-en.mp3

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:


** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/

Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/8QGOAw

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Michelle DeSmyter


Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday, 10 May 2016

  Michelle DeSmyter:Dear All, Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures WG Call on Tuesday, 10 May 2016 at 16:00 UTC
  Michelle DeSmyter:Member page/SOI: https://community.icann.org/x/I4xlAw
  Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda page: https://community.icann.org/x/8QGOAw
  Michelle DeSmyter:If you do wish to speak during the call, please either dial into the audio bridge and give the operator the password RDS, OR click on the telephone icon at the top of the AC room to activate your AC mics. Please remember to mute your phone and mics when not speaking.
  Chuck Gomes:Hi all.
  James Gannon:Hey Chuck
  Michele Neylon:afternoon boys and girls
  Nathalie Coupet:Hi
  Carlton Samuels:Howdy all
  Sana Ali:Hello!
  Susan Kawaguchi:Good morning
  Maryan Rizinski:Hi all
  Ankur Raheja:Hello all
  Ayden Férdeline:Hello to all
  Stephanie Perrin:Howdy everyone!
  Carlton Samuels:Audio getting lost and my chats too!
  Carlton Samuels:AThis is a FLAKY patform today!!
  Carlton Samuels:We haveing serious issues here
  Lisa Phifer:Work plan link: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/59638257/RDS%20PDP%20WG%20Draft%20Outline%20of%20a%20Work%20Plan%20-%20Updated%205%20May.doc
  Fabricio Vayra:thanks, Lisa
  Harold Arcos:my apologies for late connect
  Carlton Samuels:Maye its just me but the audio is cutting out every now and then!
  Ayden Férdeline:Hi. re: 7.e What is the "comment review tool"?
  Marika Konings:15 June would take it to 35 days
  Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):@Carlton: working fine for me...
  Marika Konings:if it goes out tomorrow
  Ayden Férdeline:Is the comment review tool like a matrix with all the comments received?
  Lisa Phifer:@Ayden yes
  Marika Konings:@Ayden - it is a document that is used to systematically go through each comment and provide responses
  Marika Konings:and yes, takes the form of a matrix
  Carlton Samuels:@Scott: OK. Seems to be a local latency condition then
  steve metalitz:7 e is not 35 days after 7 d
  Marika Konings:@Steve - we'll need to adjust that date based on when the request actually goes out.
  Ayden Férdeline:Roughly, how many comments do we anticipate receiving?
  Marika Konings:@Ayden - in relation to the outreach message to SG/C/SO/AC, typically all SG/Cs provide input, as well as ALAC and in this case possibly GAC.
  Marika Konings:but as Chuck notes, this is usually the result of WG members actively working with their respective groups.
  Ayden Férdeline:thanks
  Lisa Phifer:@Ayden, each group will probably respond, but we cannot know how extensive the comments will be within each response
  Lisa Phifer:Draft possible requirements will have a section for each of the first five questions at least, making it clear that input is welcomed for all of those questions.
  Lisa Phifer:@Peter's statement is a possible requirement
  Fabricio Vayra:+1 Chuck.  Exactly!
  Michele Neylon:FYI there is a meeting scheduled in Helsinki
  Michele Neylon:for this group
  Michele Neylon:on the draft agenda for Helsinki
  Ayden Férdeline:Tuesday morning
  Marika Konings:@Chuck - Donna has requested a change so that the cross-community discussion takes place before the WG meeting
  Michele Neylon:FYI the schedule in Helsinki has way fewer conflicts
  steve metalitz:can  someone put link to  Helsinki schedule in the chat pls?
  Marika Konings:Assuming that the requested is honoured, it will look as follows: Tentative F2F WG meeting - Tuesday 28 June from 8.00 - 12.00Tentative Cross-Community discussion - Monday 27 June from 17.00 - 18.30
  Michele Neylon:so most meetings will be more "open" to everyone in terms of physcially attending
  Marika Konings:@Steve - https://community.icann.org/x/_o5CAw but please note this is still a draft.
  Lisa Phifer:The list is POSSIBLE reuqirements - whether they will become requirements will be determine by WG after deliberation
  Fabricio Vayra:@Stephanie.  Disagree re: ICANN being a data controler.
  Fabricio Vayra:The people or bodies that collect and manage personal data are called "data controllers".
  Fabricio Vayra:See http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/data-collection/index_en.htm
  Fabricio Vayra:ICANN doesn't collect it etc. etc.
  Fabricio Vayra:we had this same discussion for months during EWG
  Carlton Samuels:@Stephanie: +1. The hurdle from the data protection prespective is to adjudge purpose of the entire RDS dataset can be justified
  Kathy Kleiman:@Lisa: from a data protection perspective, we are following the wrong order. First you would figure out the purpose of the data collected (as a legal term), analyze the data collected against the purpose, and then figure out whether the primary uses are legal, and proposed secondary ones too.
  Lisa Phifer:@Kathy we are not deciding anything yet, just collecting inputs
  Kathy Kleiman:@Fabricio: ICANN is setting out the rules for collection and publication- that makes it a "data controller" under data protection laws
  Fabricio Vayra:+1 Lisa
  Carlton Samuels:I think we must decide on the publication/display of the data elements as secondary from the data protection perspective
  James Gannon:Its PPSAI all over again
  Fabricio Vayra:@Kathy, lets just say that many of us don't read the definition as you're presenting it.
  Fabricio Vayra:this was the case on the EWG as well.
  Michele Neylon:Fabricio - my position has changed - I now firmly believe that ICANN is the data controller :)
  Kathy Kleiman:@Fabricio: more than half the countries in the world do read the definition that I am presenting...
  Fabricio Vayra:@Kathy - Show me a list and accompanying definition.
  Kathy Kleiman:All in the subgroup materials - particularly Privacy and Purpose
  Michele Neylon:Irish DPA has a simple FAQ https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Are-you-a-Data-Controller/y/43.htm
  Michele Neylon:Fabricio - that link is for you :)
  Carlton Samuels:@Michele: For what we call the "WHOIS dataset" yes! ICANN giveth and receiveth!  It has always been hesitant to accept that in giving it has the duty of care...and the duty TO care.
  Fabricio Vayra:@Michelle, thanks.  Seems to mirror the link I circulated earlier, so not seeing it.
  Stephanie Perrin:I think the appropriate document to look at Fab is this one: Opinion 1/2010 on the concepts of "controller" and "processor"pdf(172 kB) Choose translations of the previous link - WP 169(16.02.2010)
  Fabricio Vayra:@Steph.  Thanks.  Will review.
  Lisa Phifer:http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/article-29/documentation/opinion-recommendation/files/2010/wp169_en.pdf
  Stephanie Perrin:Michele saw the light Fab....and now there is liability attached so I predict unusual conformity of views in the registrar stakeholder group
  James Gannon:I shall be leaving the call at the top of the hour unfortunately.  Looking forward to the F2F on this
  James Gannon:2 years, 3 years? =)
  Richard Padilla:sorry for being late
  Carlton Samuels:BTW, yesterday I sent to the list a document from the US FCC that goes into extraordinary - and remarkable - detail id'ing what they think qualify as personal Identifiable Information (PII). They claimed to have collated this from various authoritative USG sources.
  Michele Neylon:Carlton - the FCC's views are very close to what you'd get from an EU based DPA
  Kathy Kleiman:@Carlton: It's a great document!
  Lisa Phifer:@Carlton would  you like to summarize it for the privacy team and have it added to that sub-team doc?
  Holly Raiche:Ys, thanks for the document - interesting
  Carlton Samuels:@Lisa.  I think I could. Good idea!!
  James Gannon:Marika or Lisa, I know this is being picky but any chance we can get this workplan as a gantt chart to try and visualise it a bit better
  Marika Konings:it currently only exists as a word doc, but we can give it a go after the WG has finalised it?
  Marika Konings:Berry will need to give me a crash course though ;-)
  James Gannon:If its only a word doc that fine, I can make a whack at gantting it once we are finalised
  James Gannon:haha
  Marika Konings:but if you can do it easily - even better!
  James Gannon:Yeah once we have finised I can do it (Wonder if I can invoice berry for that :P)
  Alan Greenberg:Regarding 12.e, I really am not sure there is a difference other than in perception. and nomenclature.
  Carlton Samuels:@Steph: Yes, recall however that the reason for not following thru on a full costing was because of the perception that a PDP would likely make some costs a crap shoot!
  Ayden Férdeline:With other WGs, like the CCWG-Accountability, they had a clear mandate that they had to do things right - but they had to do it by a deadline. When do we need to end this WG's work by? If we do not have target dates for many of the steps, how do we ensure our work remains focused and does not stretch on too long?
  Richard Padilla:As the newbie here can someone avail me of what exactly are the cost are presently
  Stephanie Perrin:There will be a significant re-allocation of costs Susan, I agree...
  Stephanie Perrin:But at the moment we have no accurate metrics on cost
  Lisa Phifer:@Richard, it is not known what the total cost of WHOIS is currently - it is a highly distributed system
  Carlton Samuels:@Susan: True, there was this sense that SOME of the real costs are already in play and may be reallocated. But a few of the key new costs could not be fully determined.
  Marika Konings:@Ayden - that is up to the WG to set a realistic timeline. There is no external time factor here as with the CCWG-Accountability related work, but obviously this is an issue that has been discussed for many years now, so hopefully we do not need to add many years more ;-)
  Carlton Samuels:@Susan: I'm referiing to the costs to build a gated access system for global access
  Marika Konings:Also, as the manager fo the PDP, the GNSO Council may also check in from time to time to see what progress is being made and what the expected milestones are.
  Stephanie Perrin:The only problem being that some of the issues have not been discussed in a meaningful way, so a certain amount will be de novo....purpose, for instance
  Susan Kawaguchi:@ Alan absolutely agree
  Nathalie Coupet:@Alan +1
  Richard Padilla:@Lisa so if no metrics exist and knowing we are discussing said issue , syrely there must be an idea of what is  or how the cost is achieved or distrubed at present if this makes sense
  Lisa Phifer:@Richard I think you are suggesting possible requirements for the cost question
  Carlton Samuels:@Alan: +1.  Which is why we think a PDP anchored in reality MIGHT make some practical decisions that affect cost of implementation.....and how these might be realized.
  Kathy Kleiman:Registrants are the base of the DNS pyramid. Individual, small organizations, small businesses will all be harmed by a rise in costs of domain names.
  Stephanie Perrin:If you cant afford to protect it, you cant afford to collect it
  Ayden Férdeline:To be provocative (and also because I do not know the answer), if we have neither the existing system nor a gated access system, and instead only collected a minimal amount of data (i.e. DNS servers), what would be the cost? Would it be cheaper for registrars?
  Ayden Férdeline:Thank you for your comments and response to my previous question, Chuck
  Carlton Samuels:@Steph: Almost like "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit"! :-)
  Richard Padilla:Thanks for that Chuck
  Stephanie Perrin:Ayden yes it would
  Lisa Phifer:@Richard you may find it useful to read this cost analysis - it identifies a number of factors that contribute to costs. It also estimated the cost of two alternative models, but it can be useful just as a way to see what some of the costs are: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/45744698/RDS%20Cost%20Analysis%20Summary%20IBM%206June2014.pdf
  Richard Padilla:@Lisa thanks for that
  Carlton Samuels:@Michele: Thanks for emphasizing the key implementing differences between cc registrant data and gTLD registrant data; publication & display!
  Stephanie Perrin:Right now, requestors of data are not paying...
  Rod Rasmussen:Note that the FCC document in question is NOT an official position yet, but rather a request for comment on rulemaking of the FCC.  There is both sharp dissent within the FCC itself (see the commissioners' statements) and already substandial pushback on that list within the US ISP community.  Jurisdiction and overreach of the proposed standards seem to be the primary responses so far.  So while this is an important and groundbreaking step by the FCC, I do not expect it to come out the other end of the process with near the same requirements as being proposed.
  Carlton Samuels:Now we have the imperatives: a contractual requirement and national legal frameworks, including data protection laws
  Kathy Kleiman:@Carlton: I thiink you have boiled it down perfectly.
  Holly Raiche:@ Carlton - and they don't always si well together (she said politely!)
  Stephanie Perrin:Thanks for that Rod.
  Carlton Samuels:@Rod: Read the commisisoners statements and even contact Ms Clyburn directly for a response on why she issued the separate statement; met her years ago when I lived in DC.
  steve metalitz: @Chuck we have already identified some areas where dates need to change.....
  Nathalie Coupet:What about the data protection of children? Is it any different from that of adults?
  Stephanie Perrin:Yes it usually is Nathalie.
  Nathalie Coupet:Is there another mechanism we need to take into account?
  Lisa Phifer:@Kathy note that policies are not detailed until phase 2, guided by requirements agreed in phase 1
  Michele Neylon:+!
  Stephanie Perrin:Age of consent varies by jurisdiction, some states have separate legislation to protect kids online
  Michele Neylon:1 even
  Michele Neylon:i like the idea of judging her names
  Nathalie Coupet:@Stephanie Thx!
  Kathy Kleiman:@All - my kid's name are great, but for privacy purposes... :-)
  Carlton Samuels:@Chuck: endorsing Alan's suggestion. +1
  Michele Neylon:We should ask your kids
  Stephanie Perrin:We should recruit her son for this group, now that he can consent for himself!
  Holly Raiche:Agree with Alan - let's get it out
  Richard Padilla:@Chuck: Agree with Alan's suggestion.
  Michele Neylon:Stephanie is he over 18 now?
  Alan Greenberg:Kathy, Sorry, but all children's name should be anonymously queriable. Along with their birth dates and applicable national identity numbers and birtmarks.
  Stephanie Perrin:Yes and a Brandeis scholar.  I would like to warp a young mind in data protection directions....
  Kathy Kleiman:@Rod, the FCC has longstang pirvacy rules for telecommunciations carriers clearly within its jursdiction and remit. It's all the CPNI - Customer Proprietary Network Information - and has a very high level of privacy protection under FCC regulation (as I am sure you know...)
  Kathy Kleiman:end of week is good
  Kathy Kleiman:gives others time to respond
  Ankur Raheja:Thanks
  Holly Raiche:end of the week is fine - or sooner
  Carlton Samuels:@Kathy: Yes, you're right! What was remarkable to me was its adoption in its reasoning of what others call PII, which extends theirs A LOT. And, then for them to declare the list they're contemplating it is not exhausted
  Richard Padilla:OK folks I will see you next week got to go ciao for now
  Carlton Samuels:@Richard: Good deed! See ya
  Alan Greenberg:When is the meeting next week?
  Sara Bockey:thank you all
  Ayden Férdeline:Thank you to all
  Roger Carney:Thanks!!
  Marc Anderson:thank you
  Stephanie Perrin:Bye all!
  Susan Prosser:thank
  Vlad Dinculescu:Thanks all
  Carlton Samuels:Bye all
  Fabricio Vayra:thanks, Chuck!
  Maryan Rizinski:Thanks everyone!
  Iliya Bazlyankov:Thanks and Bye!
  Chris Pelling:Thanks all :)
  David Cake:dialed in now

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