[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose

Thu Jan 26 12:25:40 UTC 2017

Agreed Volker, it only makes things more complex.

Theo

Volker Greimann schreef op 2017-01-26 01:16 PM:
> Does all data need to be available to everyone though? Is it not
> sufficient that there be authorized anyones that can get the data and
> facilitate the use for those that need it? I have no contest on domain
> name and name servers being public, but do other parts of the thin
> data expiration/registration dates have to be to keep the internet
> functional?
> 
> I do not dispute that there are purposes for legitimately accessing
> the data if it is there, but does it all have to be there?
> 
> Volker
> 
> Am 26.01.2017 um 09:36 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
> 
>> Stephanie
>> 
>> Ok that’s simple.
>> 
>> If you want a domain name to resolve on the internet you need
>> certain data elements to be available to everyone.
>> 
>> That’s a technical reality.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Michele
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> 
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> 
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> 
>> http://www.blacknight.host/
>> 
>> http://blacknight.blog /
>> 
>> http://ceo.hosting/
>> 
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> 
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> 
>> -------------------------------
>> 
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> 
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> 
>> FROM: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> DATE: Thursday 26 January 2017 at 04:26
>> TO: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, Michele Neylon
>> <michele at blacknight.com>
>> CC: Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com>, Sam Lanfranco
>> <sam at lanfranco.net>, "dave at davecake.net" <dave at davecake.net>,
>> "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> SUBJECT: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
>> 
>> I am not sure how we get to this discussion.  What I am saying, is
>> that the purpose of collecting data has to be linked to ICANN's core
>> mission.  AS Peter said a while ago, is the core mission to enable
>> law enforcement investigations? No.  It is a legitimate purpose to
>> use or disclose limited sets of data as required in accordance with
>> law, but it is not the reason we collect or generate thin data.
>> This distinction is important in data protection law.  Nobody is
>> saying we should not disclose the thin data, including name servers.
>> What we are trying to say, and obviously with very little success,
>> is that several of the purposes for collecting thin data which were
>> in the last poll, were not related to ICANN's core mission.  They
>> might be legitimate disclosures of data, but they are not legitimate
>> purposes to collect.
>> 
>> Displaying data in WHOIS is a disclosure.  We are not supposed to be
>> talking about that yet.  We keep conflating the legitimacy of
>> collection, and why we gather or generate data elements about a
>> domain name, and disclosure.
>> 
>> Sorry to keep hammering on this, but it is a very simple concept
>> that is fundamental to data protection.  No wonder we have been
>> arguing about this for 18 years.....
>> 
>> cheers Stephanie
>> 
>> On 2017-01-25 21:06, John Bambenek wrote:
>> 
>> Regardless of the privacy implications, if someone who wants to look
>> up a hostname and can't find can't figure out what the authoritative
>> nameservers are for the domain, DNS quite simply will not work and
>> with it the internet is down; go home.
>> 
>> Unless someone is suggesting we completely re-architect DNS, having
>> nameservers tied to domain records is absolutely essential.
>> 
>> You could deprecate displaying it in whois but any DNS client would
>> easily be able to retrieve the data because the resolver still has
>> to know what to ask for.
>> 
>> J
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 16:08, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Stephanie
>> 
>> Do you have any links to any legislation / regulations etc., that
>> are this broad?
>> 
>> And honestly I don’t see how a set of nameserver is “personally
>> identifiable” unless you’re using your own name in the hostname
>> (which you could, but then I’d see that as your choice and not a
>> technical requirement)
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Michele
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> 
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> 
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> 
>> http://www.blacknight.host/ [1]
>> 
>> http://blacknight.blog/ [2]
>> 
>> http://ceo.hosting/ [3]
>> 
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> 
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> 
>> -------------------------------
>> 
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> 
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>> 
>> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> 
>> FROM: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> DATE: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 19:40
>> TO: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>, Scott Hollenbeck
>> <shollenbeck at verisign.com>, Sam Lanfranco <sam at lanfranco.net>,
>> "dave at davecake.net" <dave at davecake.net>
>> CC: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> SUBJECT: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
>> 
>> Unfortunately, in a world where the Internet of things is taking
>> off, privacy advocates and authorities have to insist that data
>> generated by or as a result of the actions of an individual or his
>> devices(eg metadata, timestamping, etc) has to be considered as
>> personal information.  If it is used to describe processes
>> pertaining to that information, if it could be used to incriminate
>> that individual, it is important that it be recognized as
>> information for which individuals have rights.  Otherwise, we have a
>> situation where the individual has no right to access information
>> that may impact him, may incriminate him, but to which he may be
>> utterly oblivious.  Sorry it is such a pain in the neck, but there
>> we are.
>> 
>> Stephanie
>> 
>> On 2017-01-25 12:32, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> Sure, but if we go down that route we could make cases for a lot of
>> things J
>> 
>> My main problem with this entire debacle is that the data we’re
>> dealing with is pretty much useless and isn’t personally
>> identifiable.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Michele
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> 
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> 
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> 
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> 
>> http://blacknight.blog/
>> 
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> 
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> 
>> Social: http://mneylon.social
>> 
>> Some thoughts: http://ceo.hosting/
>> 
>> -------------------------------
>> 
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> 
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> 
>> FROM: Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com>
>> DATE: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 17:15
>> TO: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>, Stephanie Perrin
>> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>, Sam Lanfranco
>> <sam at lanfranco.net>, "dave at davecake.net" <dave at davecake.net>
>> CC: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> SUBJECT: RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
>> 
>> FROM: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] ON BEHALF OF Michele
>> Neylon - Blacknight
>> SENT: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 12:09 PM
>> TO: Stephanie Perrin; Sam Lanfranco; David Cake
>> CC: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> SUBJECT: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll
>> on Purpose
>> 
>> Stephanie
>> 
>> Sorry, but policy + the technology go hand in hand. You cannot
>> completely separate them and any policy that this (or any other)
>> group produces needs to be technically possible to implement.
>> 
>> As to the specifics ..
>> 
>> I would argue that generated data is NOT collected, as it’s
>> generated.
>> 
>> If you register stephanieperrin.com [4] with us the only elements we
>> are “collecting” that end up in in the “thin” data are:
>> 
>> the domain name string
>> 
>> the nameservers you’re using (and if you don’t specify any
>> we’ll use our own)
>> 
>> All the other elements are NOT collected by the registrar or even
>> the registry from the registrant, they are generated as part of the
>> process of the domain being registered.
>> 
>> [SAH] Michele, some might argue that the registration period is also
>> collected from the registrant and is then used to generate the
>> expiration date at the registry. A case might also be made for
>> status values like clientTransferProhibited etc. I agree completely
>> that generated data is just that – generated.
>> 
>> Scott
> 
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