[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners

John Bambenek jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Wed Sep 27 16:12:22 UTC 2017 

Except that the domain name system is not YOUR system, it is ICANN's who
has a very clear mandate for the security and stability of the internet.

The purpose is NOT letting registrants get domains and helping
registries get paid. It never has been.


On 09/27/2017 09:52 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead of RDS, the
> core of the matter is the need for the data when defining the purpose
> for collection.
>
> This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need (certain elements
> of) the data to be able to properly provide the business, invoice the
> customer, collect his payments, send reminders and notices, protect
> the rights of the customers in case of business failure, comply with
> legal requirements like record-keeping, etc.". I am leaving out any
> contractual requirements, as they do not matter for the registrars'
> own purpose. These are external purposes that the registrar would have
> to execute without having an own, direct need for.
>
> For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a direct
> connection to the registrants. From a service provision perspective,
> registries have no need for the data, and no right to it, except maybe
> for purposes of eligibility verification.
>
> When going beyond registries to the general public, there is no
> purpose that connects to the provision of the service to the
> registrant directly. There also (in most countries) is no legal
> requirement to collect and publish this data. Yet there is still a
> need for the data, as we have discussed in great detail.
>
> So our first question always must be the following:
>
> "How do we serve the needs of the general public that has an interest
> in the ability of obtaining such data without violating any applicable
> laws or the rights of the registrant to the privacy of his data?"
>
> This has to be the basis of any design decision and any argument made
> in this group.
>
> Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is a
> dangerous question as it effectively proposes to ignore laws that we
> as a community do not like, at the risk of contracted parties and to
> the detriment of the beneficiaries of such laws. just because there
> has not been any enforcement action in the past does not mean we can
> ignore the law applicable to the individual contracted parties. And we
> are not talking about jaywalking here, some of these laws have
> significant penalties attached to them, as we have also discussed
> before. 
>
> I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to be free to
> make business decisions cannot be absolute. It has to be bound on the
> one side by ICANN policies and the other side by applicable law. And
> these two external pressures should not be in conflict with each
> other. If we can achieve that while answering the basic question
> above, our work is done. At least for the time being, as laws may
> obviously change, but that can be taken into account as well. Any
> discussion that seeks to circumvent this basic question will
> ultimately lead to the failure of our work and by extention to the end
> of whois. The latter due to the incompatibility of current whois with
> applicable law.
>
> I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we already
> went a great way in determining what those needs are and our current
> work to discuss data points goes into that question as well, even
> though personally I feel that by defining data points at this point
> and going into the sticks in some of the discussions we are wasting
> time. The question should never be "Do we need a Facebook contact in
> the RDS?" and always be "What contacts are needed as bare minimum to
> achieve needs X, Y, Z, ...".
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Greg Shatan:
>> ​The "data controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum.  While
>> registrars and registries need to be free to make many types of
>> decisions in their own business judgment, that cannot be an absolute
>> rule.  This is at odds with the ICANN model, consensus policy, etc. 
>> In this case, the data controllers are part of a larger ecosystem,
>> and the "needs" go beyond the individual business needs of each data
>> controller. (Indeed, the individual data controller has its own
>> database of information for its business needs.)
>>
>> As I previously noted, we are going back to first principles -- which
>> is not necessarily a bad thing.  Why does ICANN (and by extension,
>> the Internet) need WHOIS/RDS?  That is the question.  Not "why does a
>> particular [registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"
>>
>> Greg​
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     So when will you start advocating the collection and publication
>>     of WHOIS for internet users? Because they would be connecting to
>>     your network all the time...
>>
>>     Volker
>>
>>
>>     Am 26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>>
>>>     "As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not.  Over
>>>     collection is not solved by providing a proxy in the third party
>>>     disclosure mechanism.  It is still over-collection,
>>>     disproportionate to needs."
>>>
>>>     I fundamentally disagree because the purpose of ICANN is not the
>>>     mere facilitation of domain from registry to registrant. The
>>>     purpose is the security and stability of the internet and that
>>>     means I have a need to verify who is connecting to my network
>>>     and have a means of contacting them. That point has never been
>>>     made, to my knowledge, to them.
>>>
>>>     The point that removing that ability of me being able to contact
>>>     domain owners does far MORE to REDUCE the privacy of the
>>>     registrants than does publishing said information.  We talk
>>>     often about verification out-of-band for sensitive
>>>     communications. How can I do that without a phone number?
>>>
>>>     I will loudly and vigorously argue that the path advocated will
>>>     make the problem FAR worse and not better. Hopefully we don't
>>>     get to the point where I have actual data to prove that.
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>     As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not.  Over
>>>>     collection is not solved by providing a proxy in the third
>>>>     party disclosure mechanism.  It is still over-collection,
>>>>     disproportionate to needs.
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     --
>>>
>>>     John Bambenek
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>     gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>     <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>>     Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>>     Volker A. Greimann
>>     - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>>     Key-Systems GmbH
>>     Im Oberen Werk 1
>>     66386 St. Ingbert
>>     Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>>     Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>>     Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>>     Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>     www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>>     Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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>>
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>>     Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
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>>
>>     Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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>>
>>     Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>>     --------------------------------------------
>>
>>     Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>     Volker A. Greimann
>>     - legal department -
>>
>>     Key-Systems GmbH
>>     Im Oberen Werk 1
>>     66386 St. Ingbert
>>     Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>>     Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>>     Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>>     Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>     www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>>     Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>     www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>     www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>>     CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>     Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>     V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>>     Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>     www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> 
>>
>>     This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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>>     <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
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>>
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> -- 
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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