[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] WSGR Final Memorandum
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Fri Sep 29 15:13:05 UTC 2017
Hi Allison,
I do not appreciate the comment you made and do not agree that there is
a difference, but I think we should take part of our discussion off the
list as it does not benefit the rest of the group. You obviously seem to
be unwilling to conform to the standards we all agreed to and I will
take that into account going forward.
The claim that use of privacy indicates a higher propensity for abuse as
alleged by Michael was not supported by the study. While privacy may be
an indicator if all other stars align, by itself it is not.Once privacy
becomes the norm, it will mean nothing.
Best,
Volker
Am 29.09.2017 um 17:02 schrieb allison nixon:
> >>Again, I resent your allegation and expect you to take it back.
> Name-calling and loosely flung accusations of trolling do not conform
> to the standard of behavior we all agreed to.
>
> See my explanation in my other email. I did not call you A troll, and
> i was not calling you names. i described your behavior as trolling and
> i explained why in the other thread.
>
> >>I must admit that I have not read that other study yet, so I cannot
> comment on their conclusion. This study here however reached another
> conclusion:
>
> "The analysis of the use of WHOIS Privacy and Proxy
> services leads us to conclude that the usage of a WHOIS
> Privacy and Proxy services by itself is not a reliable indicator
> of malicious activity. Apart from the peaks, the usage of
> Privacy and Proxy services for abusive domains is not that
> high (see Figure 28, Figure 29)."
>
> You are once again misinterpreting the simple english in that
> sentence. It is saying the use of WHOIS privacy *BY ITSELF* is not a
> reliable indicator of malicious activity. Meaning, in a vaccuum, with
> no other information about the domain, it doesn't guarantee the domain
> is malicious. If you actually understood the problem space, or read
> any of the other 32 pages of the study, you would discover that domain
> reputation relies on a large number of indicators and WHOIS privacy is
> only one indicator, and that the sentence is neither vindication nor
> damnation of the service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> Again, I resent your allegation and expect you to take it back.
> Name-calling and loosely flung accusations of trolling do not
> conform to the standard of behavior we all agreed to.
>
> I must admit that I have not read that other study yet, so I
> cannot comment on their conclusion. This study here however
> reached another conclusion:
>
> "The analysis of the use of WHOIS Privacy and Proxy
> services leads us to conclude that the usage of a WHOIS
> Privacy and Proxy services by itself is not a reliable indicator
> of malicious activity. Apart from the peaks, the usage of
> Privacy and Proxy services for abusive domains is not that
> high (see Figure 28, Figure 29)."
>
> Volker
>
>
>
>
> Am 29.09.2017 um 16:15 schrieb allison nixon:
>>
>> Then you should have read the exact next sentence following the
>> one that you took to vaguely support your argument:
>>
>> "There are many legitimate reasons why someone may want
>> to conceal possession of a domain name. The usage of a
>> WHOIS Privacy and Proxy services by itself is, therefore not a
>> reliable single indicator of malicious activity.*A previous study*
>> *by National Physical Laboratories [44], however did find that*
>> *a significant portion of abusive domains use Privacy and Proxy*
>> *services.*"
>>
>> You are trolling once again.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Not really, since Mike was alleging that there is a
>> correlation between the use of whois privacy and abuse,
>> whereas the study says the opposite.
>>
>> Whois data may have its use for fighting abuse, but private
>> registrations are not an indicator of abuse, according to the
>> study. I have not seen a study that showed there is a
>> correlation.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 29.09.2017 um 15:05 schrieb John Bambenek:
>>> I think you mistake his point. Domain whois data IS useful
>>> in fighting abuse according to everyone who actually fights
>>> abuse. The report referenced making the statement it did
>>> shows there remains a misunderstanding on that point.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2017, at 3:20 AM, Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Theo,
>>>>
>>>> it is interesting that despite studies showing there is no
>>>> correlation between domain abuse and use of domain privacy,
>>>> the same argument is being raised again and again. from my
>>>> own experience of looking at the abuse complaints we
>>>> receive, I note that only a small fraction of abusive
>>>> registrations use our privacy functions. In most cases,
>>>> harvested real data is used instead.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sadag-final-09aug17-en.pdf
>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sadag-final-09aug17-en.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> This report mentions: The usage of Privacy or Proxy
>>>>> Services by itself is not a reliable indicator of abuse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again,
>>>>>
>>>>> Theo
>>>>>
>>>>> Again it is clear now, thanks all.
>>>>> On 28-9-2017 20:50, Dotzero wrote:
>>>>>> To add to what Allison has indicated, websites do
>>>>>> analysis of these sorts of datapoints for evaluating
>>>>>> transactions for fraud and potential abuse. For example,
>>>>>> signups form domains that have private registrations have
>>>>>> a very high propensity to be related to abuse. Signups
>>>>>> and visits to our websites from IP addresses belonging to
>>>>>> hosting providers have an even higher correlation with
>>>>>> abuse (how many endusers browse the web from severs in
>>>>>> datacenters?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not police action, it is organizations protecting
>>>>>> themselves, their other users and the internet at large
>>>>>> from abusive activity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Hammer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 2:33 PM, allison nixon
>>>>>> <elsakoo at gmail.com <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reputation is based on a lot of different points not
>>>>>> just contents of WHOIS data. If the .EU TLD can keep
>>>>>> its customer base clean, there isn't much need for
>>>>>> WHOIS data for the most part, however this group
>>>>>> doesn't make policy for ccTLDs. For other TLDs that
>>>>>> this group does recommend policy for, for example,
>>>>>> .XYZ, which boasts a greater-than-90-percent rate of
>>>>>> maliciousness, any legitimate domain in that space
>>>>>> will need some other points of reputation to make up
>>>>>> for that. WHOIS is part of that, including the age,
>>>>>> and actual contact details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, WHOIS data is an important part of tracing
>>>>>> ownership and it can have consequences for the
>>>>>> registrant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently we had to deal with a ccTLD of .ir that was
>>>>>> being used to control large botnets. The current and
>>>>>> historical WHOIS data showed signs that a legitimate
>>>>>> registrant's account was stolen to do this. Thus,
>>>>>> when the complaint was sent to the registrar, the
>>>>>> registrant was not accused of running botnets, but
>>>>>> instead the registrar was alerted to an abuse of the
>>>>>> service and they could take action accordingly. If
>>>>>> the ownership of this domain could not be traced, and
>>>>>> if there were not skilled investigators on the other
>>>>>> end, would the registrant have been in danger of
>>>>>> going to an Iranian prison?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It turns out, the ccTLD of .ir was specifically
>>>>>> chosen because the criminals thought the poor
>>>>>> international relations would hamper law enforcement
>>>>>> action. However WHOIS and the transparency it
>>>>>> provides allowed people to discover the truth and
>>>>>> prevent serious problems. By locking up WHOIS behind
>>>>>> court orders, these cross-border issues will become
>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, to be clear since a lot of people can't seem to
>>>>>> tell the difference, everything we did was well
>>>>>> within the bounds of civil action, we weren't
>>>>>> "pretending to be the police" or any of the other
>>>>>> things people in this group accuse security companies
>>>>>> of doing when they deal with malware. Any member of
>>>>>> the public can file an abuse complaint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, theo geurts
>>>>>> <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allison,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this problem also exsist with TLDs like .EU,
>>>>>> .NL, .DE, .FR just to name a few ccTLDs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curious,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Theo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28-9-2017 19:42, allison nixon wrote:
>>>>>>> >> So, I can see a day that if privacy advocates
>>>>>>> and/or EU legislation fears prevent such a Best
>>>>>>> Practice as proper WHOIS records, the service
>>>>>>> providers will simply choose practices, such as
>>>>>>> 'you cannot access our service unless you have
>>>>>>> public whois information available'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's already happening. Try sending an e-mail
>>>>>>> using a domain behind WHOIS privacy. Some
>>>>>>> anti-spam systems drop it straight in the
>>>>>>> garbage because WHOIS privacy is already a
>>>>>>> negative reputation point. If WHOIS gets shut
>>>>>>> down, I fully expect groups like Spamhaus,
>>>>>>> M3AAWG, APWG, etc, to publish a set of
>>>>>>> guidelines that registrants need to abide by in
>>>>>>> order to send mail, or be accessible by people
>>>>>>> behind corporate firewalls that block based on
>>>>>>> reputation. ICANN must understand that they are
>>>>>>> at risk of losing relevancy if they want to take
>>>>>>> this hardline approach, because if a law breaks
>>>>>>> the continued functioning of a network, the
>>>>>>> network will route around it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at the "cookies" EU law. Did that actually
>>>>>>> stop any websites from using cookies? No, it
>>>>>>> just created a popup that no one reads but
>>>>>>> everyone clicks through to visit the website.
>>>>>>> Because breaking cookies breaks websites.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>Some of us have real jobs too..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which is the main reason why i can't spend 8
>>>>>>> hours every day watching this group, unlike some
>>>>>>> people here who have been active in this group
>>>>>>> for years now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My response to Chuck's email earlier, I bolded
>>>>>>> the responses and tagged the start and end of my
>>>>>>> replies for clarity:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "independent answers to the same questions
>>>>>>> we asked the European data protection
>>>>>>> experts earlier in the year"
>>>>>>> [Chuck Gomes] That was a request from WG
>>>>>>> members who felt that the DP experts might
>>>>>>> be biased. The questions were developed by
>>>>>>> the WG. There were two primary reasons for
>>>>>>> using the same questions: 1) both groups
>>>>>>> would be responding to the same questions
>>>>>>> and therefore make it easy to compare; 2)
>>>>>>> the questions were approved by the WG.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *<allison>I don't think anyone accused the DP
>>>>>>> experts of being biased. The objection was that
>>>>>>> the questions themselves were biased. The words
>>>>>>> "phishing" and "spam" and "malware" never once
>>>>>>> appeared in this entire document, despite being
>>>>>>> major core issues. The only abuse issues that
>>>>>>> were focused on were in relation to intellectual
>>>>>>> property violation and harassment of women, both
>>>>>>> of which are not the major issues most of us
>>>>>>> deal with on a daily basis(not to belittle them
>>>>>>> but they are generally not the reason why we are
>>>>>>> here today). The word "fraud" was mentioned once
>>>>>>> in a question and then never directly addressed
>>>>>>> in the response.*
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *Additionally, my entire industry was grossly
>>>>>>> misrepresented in question #6. None of us
>>>>>>> operate with police powers, and none of us
>>>>>>> pretend to have any. When we submit a complaint
>>>>>>> to a registrar about one of their customers
>>>>>>> breaking the law, the illegality of the act
>>>>>>> provides necessary justification for the
>>>>>>> registrar to drop the customer without a refund.
>>>>>>> This is not prosecution of a crime, and claiming
>>>>>>> it is such is a lie. Evidence of breaking the
>>>>>>> law is necessary because registrars aren't just
>>>>>>> going to take down any customer we say we don't
>>>>>>> like. I wholly object to the entire line they
>>>>>>> continued on about cybersecurity companies and
>>>>>>> "quasi-police powers", because the question
>>>>>>> never differentiated between civil and criminal
>>>>>>> actions and it was therefore misleading. *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *None of the questions addressed the issues that
>>>>>>> registrants have where their WHOIS and other
>>>>>>> reputation points affect the de-facto
>>>>>>> functionality of a domain, for example a
>>>>>>> domain's functionality is hampered when it is on
>>>>>>> blocklists. Or if someone sends a complaint
>>>>>>> against the domain and has no tools to
>>>>>>> differentiate the registrant from the criminal
>>>>>>> (as registrar accounts are often hacked), then
>>>>>>> the incorrect accusation can also affect the
>>>>>>> operability of the domain as it is mistakenly
>>>>>>> taken down in confusion. None of the questions
>>>>>>> ask about conflicts between GDPR and basic
>>>>>>> network-level-functionality of domains.*
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *Also, none of the questions ask if a free
>>>>>>> no-obligation alternative (whois privacy
>>>>>>> protect) enhances the validity of consent given
>>>>>>> for making WHOIS records public. </allison>*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So we weren't allowed to ask questions of
>>>>>>> these legal experts? You know, they can't
>>>>>>> magically divine all legitimate use cases.
>>>>>>> The session with the EU data protection
>>>>>>> experts earlier this year is the exact same
>>>>>>> one we objected to because anti abuse use
>>>>>>> cases got exactly zero representation. So
>>>>>>> why choose that exact set of questions again
>>>>>>> especially since an entire group of people
>>>>>>> have joined the group afterwards(actually,
>>>>>>> due to this specific problem of lack of
>>>>>>> representation)? And then label it "final",
>>>>>>> really.
>>>>>>> [Chuck Gomes] We didn’t ask them to consider
>>>>>>> use cases except as they were relevant to
>>>>>>> the questions we asked; that is our job and
>>>>>>> we prepared a list of those a long time
>>>>>>> ago. We asked them to focus on their
>>>>>>> understanding of European Data Protection
>>>>>>> law. Our WG has a good mix of people that
>>>>>>> use RDS data for different uses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *<allison>And his answers are borderline
>>>>>>> useless. The scenarios presented were extremely
>>>>>>> poor, and not reflecting today's Internet and
>>>>>>> the problems network operators face. For
>>>>>>> example, when he writes "This means that the
>>>>>>> term 'vital interest' is to be interpreted as
>>>>>>> referring to an individual’s life, health,
>>>>>>> safety, or other such interest that is essential
>>>>>>> to their physical wellbeing", he goes on to talk
>>>>>>> about IP violations, the rights of a child, the
>>>>>>> economic interests of a search engine, finally
>>>>>>> concluding "we believe that the **conditions for
>>>>>>> using the 'legitimate interests' legal basis
>>>>>>> would not be satisfied".*
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *That's a complete misrepresentation of the
>>>>>>> interests at stake here. The issue at hand is
>>>>>>> not the economic interests of one company nor
>>>>>>> about mere copyright infringement. The WHOIS
>>>>>>> data resource is used to combat all types of
>>>>>>> fraud, international espionage, rigging of
>>>>>>> elections, and so many hostile attacks. Some of
>>>>>>> these attacks, especially DDOS, frequently
>>>>>>> threaten basic functionality of the Internet. It
>>>>>>> has an international strategic value and
>>>>>>> promotes lawful behavior far more than it hurts.
>>>>>>> It's used to create cleaner, safer networks.
>>>>>>> There are countless documented instances where
>>>>>>> WHOIS played a key role and where the
>>>>>>> replacement system would have allowed the
>>>>>>> malicious behavior to continue. All of these
>>>>>>> facts have been conveniently left out of the
>>>>>>> question, and since the lawyer can't be expected
>>>>>>> to know all this, he has no choice but to
>>>>>>> conclude that the legitimate interests provided
>>>>>>> are too weak. </allison>*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Havent gone through it yet, will do so as i
>>>>>>> get time. Expecting to see the same result
>>>>>>> one can expect when one doesn't represent
>>>>>>> entire groups of constituencies.
>>>>>>> [Chuck Gomes] What do you mean by
>>>>>>> representing ‘entire groups of
>>>>>>> constituencies’? Do you represent an entire
>>>>>>> constituency? Are you aware of any
>>>>>>> constituencies who are not represented in
>>>>>>> the WG? If so, please encourage them to
>>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *<allison>Dozens of people joined this mailing
>>>>>>> list after numerous events demonstrated that
>>>>>>> this working group did not consider the overall
>>>>>>> well being of the Internet, and had a completely
>>>>>>> skewed idea of the problems the Internet faces
>>>>>>> today. People were outraged that this group was
>>>>>>> going in the direction it was going, ignoring
>>>>>>> how the Internet actually works. The fact that
>>>>>>> these questions were chosen- and the fact that
>>>>>>> the new membership(especially those that joined
>>>>>>> after the questions were initially asked) were
>>>>>>> not given any opportunity to provide input on
>>>>>>> questions to the lawyer- does not reflect well
>>>>>>> on the leadership of this working group. Even
>>>>>>> when the original questions were created, as far
>>>>>>> as I can tell, only people physically present at
>>>>>>> that meeting had any chance to provide input.
>>>>>>> For those of us with jobs in operations, being
>>>>>>> ever-present for this working group is
>>>>>>> impossible, and none of us have the stamina that
>>>>>>> some of the people here have, because we are
>>>>>>> busy working. *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *At its most charitable interpretation, the
>>>>>>> choice of these specific questions could be an
>>>>>>> innocent oversight or miscommunication. At its
>>>>>>> least charitable, it looks like ICANN's money
>>>>>>> was wasted on a procedural trick to keep facts
>>>>>>> out of the conversation and continue to push a
>>>>>>> narrow agenda.*
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *People from numerous unrelated Internet
>>>>>>> companies and law firms flooded this group
>>>>>>> earlier this year once sunshine was shed on this
>>>>>>> group's activities. Maybe that's important.
>>>>>>> Please take it seriously. </allison>*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Michael
>>>>>>> Peddemors <michael at linuxmagic.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:michael at linuxmagic.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, If ICANN cannot figure out how to make
>>>>>>> a proper functioning WHOIS policy, we have
>>>>>>> to remember that the community at large
>>>>>>> will, and then simply, ICANN will loose
>>>>>>> relevance on this issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one passed a law that a mail server had
>>>>>>> to have a functioning PTR record, (well yes,
>>>>>>> some international spam legislations clearly
>>>>>>> spelled out the need for clearly specifying
>>>>>>> the operator) but if you want to send email
>>>>>>> today, functionally you need a PTR record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only problem is, that often it is the
>>>>>>> biggest players that set those standards,
>>>>>>> and it is the role of organizations like
>>>>>>> ICANN to level the field, and make sure that
>>>>>>> directions aren't dictated by the biggest
>>>>>>> players on the block, and never more so in a
>>>>>>> world of consolidation and cloud providers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it was Yahoo that was one of the
>>>>>>> first big players to simply not accept
>>>>>>> connections from IP(s) with no PTR, and I
>>>>>>> know we were one of the early adopters to
>>>>>>> that strategy..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I can see a day that if privacy
>>>>>>> advocates and/or EU legislation fears
>>>>>>> prevent such a Best Practice as proper WHOIS
>>>>>>> records, the service providers will simply
>>>>>>> choose practices, such as 'you cannot access
>>>>>>> our service unless you have public whois
>>>>>>> information available'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be far better if ICANN can
>>>>>>> understand the importance of that need, and
>>>>>>> make a statement that everyone can get
>>>>>>> behind and point to, that levels that field,
>>>>>>> in 'spite' of possible contradictory privacy
>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's just simple keep these two
>>>>>>> conversations separate, one should NOT
>>>>>>> affect the other, this isn't a privacy vs
>>>>>>> information publishing standards issue, we
>>>>>>> can have both.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (And again, I assert that simply 'informed
>>>>>>> consent' can always deal with any situations
>>>>>>> where they conflict)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Michael --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS, my concern is that this lengthy
>>>>>>> wrangling prevents real work from getting
>>>>>>> done, and the participants who are integral
>>>>>>> to this conversation will fall by the way
>>>>>>> side, and the lobbyist's will simply wear
>>>>>>> them down ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us have real jobs too..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17-09-27 02:58 PM, John Bambenek via
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A simple policy proscription would be,
>>>>>>> for instance, to say under US law if you
>>>>>>> get a domain under the control of a US
>>>>>>> registrar, we need you to consent to
>>>>>>> full disclosure. Don't like it, pick a
>>>>>>> European ccTLD. I don't advocate that,
>>>>>>> mind you, but that's the kind of policy
>>>>>>> balkanization could produce.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 09/27/2017 04:31 PM, Paul Keating wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am failing to understand how such
>>>>>>> a walled-garden approach will solve
>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.EU <http://1.EU>
>>>>>>> registrars/registries would
>>>>>>> still have to deal with GDPR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.Registrars are not aided by the
>>>>>>> distinction since they would still
>>>>>>> end up with EU customers and EU
>>>>>>> registrant data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PRK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>>>
>>>>>>> on behalf of jonathan matkowsky
>>>>>>> <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2017
>>>>>>> at 11:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: Rubens Kuhl <rubensk at nic.br
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br>
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br>>>
>>>>>>> Cc: RDS PDP WG
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] WSGR
>>>>>>> Final Memorandum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Assuming for argument's sake
>>>>>>> that's true without taking any
>>>>>>> position as I'm still catching
>>>>>>> up from a week ago, I'm not sure
>>>>>>> this should be dismissed without
>>>>>>> consideration as a possibility,
>>>>>>> although obviously not by any
>>>>>>> stretch of the imagination ideal -->
>>>>>>> non-EU registrars block EU
>>>>>>> registrants, and registries contract
>>>>>>> with non-EU registrars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 8:25 PM,
>>>>>>> Rubens Kuhl <rubensk at nic.br
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br>
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br
>>>>>>> <mailto:rubensk at nic.br>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 7:17
>>>>>>> PM, John Horton
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <john.horton at legitscript.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much of this problem
>>>>>>> goes away if we all agree that
>>>>>>> EU-based
>>>>>>> registrars should henceforth
>>>>>>> only be allowed to accept
>>>>>>> registrants in the EU. Aside
>>>>>>> from the effect on EU
>>>>>>> registrars' revenue, what's the
>>>>>>> logical argument against that
>>>>>>> from a policy perspective?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After all, isn't the purpose
>>>>>>> of the GDPR to protect _EU
>>>>>>> residents_?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's correct, but the
>>>>>>> conclusion is not. Non-EU registrars
>>>>>>> are also subject to GDPR if
>>>>>>> targeting EU customers, which
>>>>>>> could be as simple as
>>>>>>> providing services in EU languages and
>>>>>>> accepting registration transactions
>>>>>>> from the EU.
>>>>>>> So, for the problem to go
>>>>>>> away non-EU registrars would need to
>>>>>>> block EU registrants, and
>>>>>>> registries would only be able to
>>>>>>> enter contracts with non-EU
>>>>>>> registrars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So EU users would either be
>>>>>>> happy using numeric IP addresses,
>>>>>>> or develop a naming system
>>>>>>> of their own. Then we would have
>>>>>>> balkanisation, this time actually
>>>>>>> including the original balkans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rubens
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "Catch the Magic of Linux..."
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
>>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com
>>>>>>> @linuxmagic
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> A Wizard IT Company - For More Info
>>>>>>> http://www.wizard.ca
>>>>>>> "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of
>>>>>>> Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> 604-682-0300 <tel:604-682-0300> Beautiful
>>>>>>> British Columbia, Canada
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This email and any electronic data contained
>>>>>>> are confidential and intended
>>>>>>> solely for the use of the individual or
>>>>>>> entity to which they are addressed.
>>>>>>> Please note that any views or opinions
>>>>>>> presented in this email are solely
>>>>>>> those of the author and are not intended to
>>>>>>> represent those of the company.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> _________________________________
>>>>>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> _________________________________
>>>>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>>>> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>
>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>>>
>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>>
>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>
>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>>>
>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - legal department -
>>>>
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>>>> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>
>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>>>
>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>>
>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>
>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>>>
>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________
>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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