[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 13 13:57:30 UTC 2018
I am afraid that if we create different policies for different regions,
we will break the model, encourage forum shopping and encourage
firewalling of entire geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not
what we are doing here.
GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as our mission to fix
this breakage of the standard by proposing a unified model once again.
Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been asking for, e.g.
protect legitimate use cases of registration data as well as the rights
of the data subjects, there is no reason why it should not be
universally applicable.
Best,
Volker
Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>
> Volker,
>
> The WG could recommend policies that are ‘universally applicable to
> all registrations’ but I seriously doubt that will happen in today’s
> world. That would be much simpler than policies that vary by region
> and users, but is it realistic?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of “One World; one
> Internet”. This also means that the policies it creates should be
> universally applicable to all registrations, if possible. IF we start
> creating policy that diverges, that would only lead to further
> fragmentation and undermine the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our
> aim should be to create one policy that can be applied to all or most
> registrations and that can be implemented by all registrars alike.
>
> While we will likely have a certain amount of fragmentation following
> May 25 as each contracted party applies its own solution, it should be
> our goal to overcome this and present a new unified policy that works
> for all contracted parties.
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage <michael at palage.com
> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg/John,
>
> I will respectfully push back on your legal over simplification of
> the GDPR.
>
> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth in Article 3 is NOT
> just limited to EU residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in
> the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an Irish legal entity
> to protect all of its customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance
> with GDPR, as well as US entities that target and conduct business
> within the EU.
>
> Now your points about the distinction between natural and legal
> persons is a fair one and one that has been noted in EU and Art 29
> communications. Could you please share the basis of your
> proposition that 97% of all domain name registrations are
> registered by legal entities.
>
> As I have note previously the long term viability of the ICANN
> multi-stakeholder model is at risk as national governments
> continue to pass national laws that impact the operation of the
> Internet. However, the European Union is NOT alone in advancing
> Privacy Legislation, in fact data localization is perhaps the next
> biggest lurking threat to the domain name system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf Of*John
> Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no justification to force
> a law that is only intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
> that are b) natural persons not using the domain name for
> commercial purposes, to the remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the
> world's registrant population? That would be a balanced way to
> implement all of this.
>
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
> *Follow****LegitScript*: LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/legitscript> | _Blog
> <http://blog.legitscript.com/>_ |Newsletter
> <http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>
> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>
> GDPR is based on one principle. It states what is legal. It's
> explicit about what you _are allowed to do_; granted there’s
> some flexibility and room for interpretation. It’s like
> saying what’s inside a box.
>
> U.S. law is one based on different principles. AFAIK U.S.
> consumer protection law does not enumerate specifically what
> is lawful. Instead it tends to state what is illegal, what you
> are _not allowed to do_. It’s like saying what’s outside the
> box. The U.S. doesn’t have something like GDPR that spells
> out legal bases for collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and consumer protection
> laws basically say: entities have the right to form contracts
> between themselves, they should live up to the contract, don’t
> surprise people, don’t do certain dishonest things.
>
> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR principle the ICANN
> standard and you apply it to all registrations, then practices
> that are allowable in one place under the law (like the U.S.)
> would no longer be allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN
> would be choosing one legal approach or regime for everyone in
> the world.
>
> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only to those that it is
> designed to protect: registrants in the EU.
>
> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law that prohibits a U.S.
> registrar from having a contract that says publication of full
> contact data in WHOIS is a condition of registering a domain
> name if you are a registrant in the U.S.
>
> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
> for more.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf
> Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
> *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive, although also rather
> open-ended (hence our current pickle). But regardless of the
> term we use, don’t we arrive at the same place: which is that
> if something that requires a legal basis is done without one,
> it will be unlawful? Using Kathy’s example, if data is
> processed without complying with minimization or purpose
> principles, will such processing not run afoul of the law, and
> hence be unlawful?
>
> There are important distinctions between the meaning of “legal
> basis” which implies that a law requires something to be
> affirmatively present, versus “lawful”, which means that
> something is not prohibited by law. Ultimately though, isn’t
> “lawfulness”, the same end point, regardless?
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf Of*Volker
> Greimann
> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems sound. The
> flexibility within the GDPR still only allows processing in
> very specific cicumstances, all of which are listed in the GDPR.
>
> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria Sheckler:
>
> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a practical level when one
> looks at the GDPR and what it says about when data can be
> processed. The GDPR allows for flexibility for what can
> be processed and when, and kathy’s analysis overlooks that
> point.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf
> Of*Kathy Kleiman
> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck, and following up on
> the discussion of Sam and Tapani, let me add that criteria
> for processing must be clearer than something broadly
> within ICANN's mission statement and something permissible
> somewhere. The requirements under law are express and
> concrete.
>
> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and c) states:
>
> *Personal data shall be:
> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit and legitimate
> purposes_and not further processed in a manner that is
> incompatible with those purposes"*(the "purpose
> limitation") AND*
> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary
> in relation to the purposes for which they are
> processed"*(the "data minimisation" requirement).
> [underline added]*
> *
> Thus, our first criteria of "consistent with ICANN's
> mission," is only the first step and we need to go further
> than even the 3 criteria we are discussing..
>
> Second, lawful and legal enter us into a debate over words
> and I have to agree with Sam and Tapani's analysis and let
> me add some of my own.
>
> "Legal" is the term we use for actions expressly allowed
> under law. How we process personal data under the GDRP
> falls into this category -- of processing expressly
> allowed under law. Whereas the term lawful is used for a
> much broader category of actions which are generally
> permissible and allowable.
>
> The term "legal" is much more consistent with our criteria
> statement because the processing of personal data by ICANN
> must clearly have a/valid legal basis/as expressly defined
> by data protection laws.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathy
>
> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:
>
> Thanks Tapani,
>
> I will extract from your longer message.
> I deliberately kept my brief and less technical.
> I think we are in agreement here and I support your
> position.
>
> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>
> The key distinction, as I understand it, is that
> "lawful" would be
> defined by the negative, everything that some law
> does not prohibit,
>
> where as "legal basis" is defined by the positive,
> only things whose
> justification can be explicitly derived from law.
>
> <......>
>
> So I would prefer "legal basis" specifically in this
> sense: that any processing
> would have to be explicitly based on one of the
> criteria, or bases, as listed
> in GDPR Article 6, or similar explicit justification
> in other data protection legislation.
>
>
>
>
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>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
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