[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
John Bambenek
jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Sun Mar 11 22:00:20 UTC 2018
We are allowing European law to drive whois/rds policy? Now its suddenly a bridge to far to use laws of the relevant jurisdiction to define commercial and/or legal persons?
--
John Bambenek
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 16:47, Volker Greimann - Key-Systems GmbHz <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
> Very true. German courts have held otherwise private websites using Adsense advertizing as being commercially used.
>
> So there would be large differences.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 11. Mar 2018, at 17:39, David Cake <dave at davecake.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. What counts as commercial use varies by jurisdiction. It we try to force groups into a commercial category based on some single metric (such as “accepts payments” ), then many will be miscategorised.
>>
>> I agree very much with Greg that this is a yawning rabbit hole of dubious value. It has yet to be demonstrated that it has any relevance to our discussions.
>>
>> David
>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2018, at 4:00 am, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks John,
>>>
>>> I would turn that around, If regional or national laws already fix those issues, then we should not come up with a solution that will never work one a global level, we have a very limited remit here.
>>>
>>> Theo
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11-3-2018 20:52, John Bambenek wrote:
>>>> We are trying to develop a globally sounds solution to RDS that fits the needs of all stakeholders instead of using a tailored and specific law and applying that far beyond what it is intended to do.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:49, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Theo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>>>>> It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for creating a legal person. That process is very different from acknowledging the creation of a natural person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal persons will attempt to deceive you as to which they are. Microsoft isn’t going to say their domain is personal. People aren’t going to tell you they are really corporations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a legal definition and surely a process of determining which is which.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>>>>>>> To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the edge cases be adjudicated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions I’d recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI deliberations on this matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable, however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a difference between legal person and natural person.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
>>>>>>> To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid response to Volker. You ask during registration, make it mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in complaints simple use the definitions in use in the jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows the difference between legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of contention here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That those who actually work in security and those who actually work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that not having access to this information in a free, easy, and programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and stability of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more important than convenience of registries/registrars in dealing with how to define commercial which is NOT in ICANNs mission.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here’s the final report:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from page 55
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
>>>>>>> To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to a document we can read? Stating that something was discussed somewhere gives me little to go on as to what information you’d like me to know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy privacy) PDP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
>>>>>>> To: sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of identifying the domain names used in commercial manner amongst the existing hundreds of million registered domains. Please also identify how this determination can be updated automatically once the use of a domain name changes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does not deal with content except for very small and specific areas. ICANN and registrars have no relationship with the content that is published under a domain name. We certainly have no control over specific uses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These details belong on the websites, as is provided in the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no need to duplicate this in whois.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Private persons (including private persons in a public career or a career of public exposure) need privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect online commercial entities of varying ethical standards? Does Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right to privacy of its Registrant data?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Their customers don't look for contact information from RDS, but in the entity's commercial web site, but the information is not there. Many online entities operate from behind layers of veil that separate them from customers and enable them to carry on their commercial activity with minimal or non-existent accountability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions of air tickets but does not seem to have a building somewhere, and/or does not have an employee with a name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes your money, takes your information without disclosing any of its own, and does not have a phone number or answer email messages (operates through call centers, answers email messages by templates) when you are stranded Midway with a ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your credit card number, yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data, yourholiday owns your passport, and all these entities don't have an email address, phone number or a building with a person.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data privacy where it concerns an online entity that carries out commercial monetary transactions online? That would require us to discriminate between private persons and e-commerce entities, which would be a complex process - agreed. Nevertheless, could we think about this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sivasubramanian M
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>
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