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Thanks Carlton, v happy to hear this!<br>
SP<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-02-05 13:38, Carlton Samuels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOZQb9St1B541G4NVa844O6fq+=YXSHV2GsLgFEZXA=2cXsfmQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Let not your heart be troubled
Steph.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I know your observations are
not particularised to individuals and would never take it that
way. My reference is purely to leadership - and I do think
we're agreed that the role must be sculpted for effect. I
totally respect you position.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">-Carlton</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: 876-818-1799<br>
<i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Planning, Governance,
Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 4:34 PM,
Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I am sorry if you
find the discussion sad, Alan (and Carlton and Holly) but
in the context of recent CCWG activities, I think it is
very important. If the GAC and the SSAC also had
candidates, this GNSO pdp would be led by ACs, not the
stakeholder groups who comprise the GNSO. I don't think
this is acceptable. Nothing precludes vigorous and active
participation in the pdp, we are only talking about
leadership. And if you don't all know how deeply I
respect your contributions, let me say it now. This is
not about individuals.<br>
Kind regards, <br>
Stephanie
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 2016-02-05 13:26, Carlton Samuels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I purposely did
not respond to this thread because I know Alan
is on here and I wanted him to tell his own
story. Now I feel compelled to give public
support. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">+1.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I can attest to
the substance of facts he recorded. And while
for this engagement I too would preferentially
select the leadership from GNSO ranks for
reasons already aired, I believe that a blanket
order against non-GNSO aspirants to leadership
would be a retrograde step.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">There are many
paths to salvation. But what is absolutely
required is leadership that is fit to purpose.
We have a semblance of purpose already defined.
And we have a fairly well-defined frame to
evaluate aspirants for leadership. GNSO
affiliation is weighted here. But in the end,
it is one and only one attribute. A stinker
(for what is required) that is GNSO-labeled
would be counterintuitive.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">-Carlton </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div><br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:876-818-1799" value="+18768181799"
target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br>
<i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Planning,
Governance, Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at
11:00 PM, Alan Greenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div> I enter this discussion with some
trepidation, but I have no choice.<br>
<br>
Before I start, I will point out that I have
no interest in a leadership role in this WG
- my plate is quite full already.<br>
<br>
I served as a ALAC Liaison to the GNSO for
EIGHT years. I believe I hold the record for
service on the GNSO in ANY role, other than
that held by Glen de Saint Géry (Marika will
top me in a few months).<br>
<br>
At my first meeting as a novice to ICANN, I
was somewhat amazed to find that the
then-current ALAC Liaison to the GNSO, Bret
Fausett, was one of the GNSO presenters in a
public session. Somehow it surprised me that
they would let a "foreigner" speak on their
behalf. <br>
<br>
I was appointed as the ALAC Liaison at the
end of that meeting, and I quickly learned
not to be surprised. With very few
exceptions over the eight years, I felt
welcomed and fairly treated by the GNSO as a
group and by the vast majority of
Councillors individually. Along the way I
played key roles in a very large number of
PDP and other WGs, including Chairing a PDP
WG.<br>
<br>
I totally agree with those who say that the
leaders of this new group should not be
newbies and need a good history in ICANN and
the GNSO and GNSO WGs. To the extent
possible (and it is not always possible), WG
leaders should not be espousing the
positions of their constituency. Yes,
understanding the various positions is
important, but that is not necessarily a
characteristic of someone who is themselves
a "believer".<br>
<br>
I will have no problem if the leaders of
this WG end up being from GNSO groups, but
the message being sent that the GNSO cannot
accept having outsiders lead one of their
WGs is counter to what I understood about
the GNSO in my eight years, and is counter
to where I think that the GNSO should be
going. Now is NOT the time to become more
insular and suspicious of anyone who does
not bear an insider logo on their T-shirt.<br>
<br>
I will also note that people move around in
their ICANN life. When I started, Bret
Fausett, as I mentioned, was with At-Large,
as he was for ten years according to his
ICANNWiki entry), Avri Dora was a NomCom
appointee, and soon after became Council
Chair (the ONLY GNSO Chair who was not a
member of a Contracted Party), Stephane Van
Gelder was a Registrar, Roberto Gaetano, was
ALAC Liaison to the Board, later Board
member and Vice-Chair and later he
co-chaired a GNSO PDP! And Liz Williams was
an ICANN staff member working with the GNSO
and Donna Austin was also an ICANN staff
member. Where you are today says little of
their past history or experience.<br>
<br>
I must thank Liz who is the only "GNSO"
person I can recall who objected, and I
support what she said.<br>
<br>
I find this entire conversation very sad.<span><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Alan</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 04/02/2016 09:55 AM, Stephanie Perrin
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I cannot speak
for James, but I will repeat that I do
object to ICANN volunteers from other
SGs playing a leadership role, even
wonderful contenders such as Holly!
Given the somewhat tumultuous
discussions that have gone on at the
CCWG over the past year, it seems to
me prudent that the GNSO lead its own
processes. Furthermore, the WHOIS
debates over the past 15 years have
amply demonstrated the different
economic and policy interests in the
data, and these interests tend to be
sharply divided along stakeholder
groups. Ensuring a balance of those
stakeholder groups on the leadership
team from the get-go will help
diminish perceptions of unfairness and
lack of trust.<br>
<br>
That in no way diminishes the
important role and contributions of
volunteers to this committee, and I
would stress that there are likely to
be be working groups established in
this (doubtless multi-year effort)
where people can contribute in a
leader role. However, this is
undoubtedly going to be a fractious
process and I think it is reasonable
to look for previous participation at
ICANN, not necessarily leadership of a
pdp per se, but demonstrated ability
to remain neutral, understand
procedure, and support staff who are
going to be doing a great deal of work
for us. With great respect to all
volunteers, I don't think this is a
role for those who have not recently
participated in at least some kind of
working group at ICANN. It is very
important that we have a broad range
of expertise and talent represented
here, but let us be clear about the
various roles we all will be playing.
<br>
My original point, which James
clarified far better than I had
originally expressed it, is that
volunteers who are not used to ICANN
and its processes will not understand
any of the political questions
embedded in the poll, meaning no
disrespect to staff who created that
poll.<br>
<br>
If I may reiterate the point that
Michele made, many of the SOIs of
people who have volunteered for this
work need serious editing and
clarification. If staff could review
the list and reach out to those in
question it would be appreciated. Our
membership list for NCUC is public,
non-members are welcome to apply.<br>
And if I may respond to a point that
Dr. Williams made: "I would suggest
that we leave it to the leadership
group to decide who “leads” it…all of
us are capable of leading"<br>
1. We are discussing the process of
how to select that leadership group at
the moment, once that group is
determined, how they spell one another
off is of course up to them with group
concensus, providing procedures are
duly followed (and I for one depend on
Marika to remind us of procedures on a
regular basis)<br>
2. With great respect, we are not all
equal in our leadership ability and
experience. This is why several of us
are insisting on demonstrated ability
to perform a neutral, balanced role in
an ICANN setting. I think it is quite
challenging. For those who are new to
ICANN, following this group for a year
or so every week will give you a rich
and varied experience which will
doubtless be useful in future efforts.
<br>
I am sorry to go on at such length,
but I wanted to dispel any impression
I had given that I was intending this
to be an insider process....far from
it, I am very keen on recruiting (for
instance) some individuals who have
knowledge of data protection and human
rights law who have rarely in the past
participated at ICANN, resulting in
unfortunate policies that violate
national law. However, such new
individuals/volunteers with varied
expertise are, regardless of past
leadership roles, perhaps not the best
choices for the leadership team. I
speak as a newbie with only 3 years of
working experience at ICANN, who has
now participated in at least 6 working
groups. Doing a good job here, in my
view, requires a lot of learning and
bandwidth.<br>
Kind regards, <br>
Stephanie Perrin<br>
On 2016-02-04 6:07, Holly Raiche
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Point of
clarification James <br>
<br>
I think we all put our hands
together when Chuck put his hand
up. He is the obvious Chair of this
PDP from my perspective (and, I
believe, a large number of hoers) -
with his own stated qualification
that it is for Phase one. But we
also all agreed that he would need
help - Vice-chairs. Are you
objecting to other ICANN folk (or
others with loads of ICANN
experience) in those positions as
well?<br>
<br>
Holly<br>
On 4 Feb 2016, at 6:25 pm, James
Gannon <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>
> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Holly,<br>
Yes apologies for the typo and yes
as I said later in the post I do
object to GNSO PDPs being led by
non-GNSO members. This is my own
personal opinion but given the
current discussions I thought I
should be clear in my position.<br>
<br>
-jg<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<br>
On 4 Feb 2016, at 06:59, Holly
Raiche <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target="_blank">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">h.raiche@internode.on.net</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi James <br>
<br>
Just a question about your first
sentence - probably caused by
what I think is a misspelling of
‘linking’. Are you seriously
objecting to leadership roles
for people who are not members
of the GNSO?<br>
<br>
Just checking<br>
<br>
Holly<br>
On 4 Feb 2016, at 5:15 pm, James
Gannon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a></a>
> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I agree
with your point in principle
Sana, but in reality I think a
couple of us are concerned
that the poll is being used
for some strange questions
that are more political in
nature such as the question on
leadership inkling people from
outside of the GNSO. The
results of this first poll
will be used to determine
eligibility for leadership
positions based on a set of
criteria that will be formed
from the poll. <br>
<br>
Given the extremely complex
political aspects of WHOIS and
its interrelations with so
many areas of the community it
may be extremely difficult for
a newcomer to the entire PDP
process and in particular to
WHOIS/RDS to make a fully
educated decision on some of
the questions posed. So its
not so much that experience
and understanding of the
landscape is necessary to be
polled, but that to make a
fully informed decision will
take longer than the 2 weeks
that the PDP has been running
so far.<br>
<br>
Take for example the issues
that some of us have noticed
with peoples SOI’s, there are
people wit incorrect
information and affiliations,
people claiming to be part of
constituencies that they are
not and people listing
themselves as independent when
they are known to have
affiliations and sometimes
business relationships with
parties with commercial and
legal interests at stake in
the RDS discussions, until we
get the basics such as these
things correct its hard to
take an informed decision on
the need or want to take an
independent member of the
working group into a
leadership role that is not
GNSO affiliated. <br>
<br>
Also there is a principle
involved here, I firmly and
strongly believe that the GNSO
operates its membership in an
open and inclusive manner,
where almost everyone can find
a home for themselves if they
wish to participate in the
policy development process.
And even if one feels the need
to be independent we offer
open membership to
non-affiliated persons and
they are considered fully
during all dissuasions and
decision making efforts.
However at the core of the PDP
is the fact that it is the
GNSOs mission to create gTLD
policy through its PDP, and
that that role sits firmly
with the GNSO not with the
other ACs and Sos.<br>
<br>
I am likely going to open
myself up to some backlash
here but I am of the opinion
that we cannot allow GNSO
policy development to be led
by other parts of the ICANN
ecosphere, the role of the
GNSO is diluted when we do so
and results in a GNSO that is
not performing the
self-control that it needs to
do in order to fulfil its own
mission. In particular when it
comes to AC’s participating in
leadership roles on a PDP like
this I feel that it in some
way violates the system of
checks and balances that ICANN
is formed on, AC’s such as
ALAC an the GAC have the
opportunity to provide advice
to the board when the results
of GNSO PDPs come for
consideration by the ICANN
board, to wish to lead those
same PDPs I feel takes two
bites from the apple, and
given that ALAC and At-Large
members are free to
participate in the policy
development process as
decisional members I think
that adding leadership roles
to that dynamic complicates
things massively.<br>
<br>
Bit of a wall of text but <br>
TL;DR: Its the GNSOs role in
ICANN to produce policy for
gTLDs therefore this needs to
be a GNSO led process with
open and collaborative
membership.<br>
<br>
-jg<br>
<br>
From: <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a></a>>
on behalf of Sana Ali <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sana.ali2030@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sana.ali2030@gmail.com">sana.ali2030@gmail.com</a></a>
><br>
Date: Thursday 4 February 2016
at 1:33 a.m.<br>
To: Jennifer Gore Standiford
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:JStandiford@web.com" target="_blank">JStandiford@web.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Please participate - poll on
RDS PDP WG leadership team
characteristics<br>
<br>
Dear Stephanie, <br>
<br>
I’ll respectfully disagree
with you here.<br>
<br>
Experience should certainly be
a matter of importance when
determining who should be in
leadership roles, but to
suggest it should also be
required for something as
simple as voting on who should
be in those roles, based on
pretty straightforward and
comprehensible principles, I
find a bit dangerous. It
inhibits participation based
on…prior participation, which
can become a slippery slope.<br>
<br>
And from following the
discussion, as a newcomer, I
have at least picked up on the
fact that even more
experienced members of this
group seem in no way unanimous
on what should be the key
characteristics of the team.<br>
<br>
My two cents (with full
disclosure that these are
indeed rather newly-minted
pennies)<br>
Sana Ali<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sana.ali2030@gmail.com"
target="_blank">sana.ali2030@gmail.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://ca.linkedin.com/in/sanaali2030"
target="_blank">
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/sanaali2030</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Feb
3, 2016, at 8:00 PM,
Jennifer Gore Standiford
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:JStandiford@web.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:JStandiford@web.com">JStandiford@web.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Agreed. +1<br>
<br>
On Feb 3, 2016, at 7:50 PM,
Stephanie Perrin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">There
is a fundamental problem
here, in my view. There
are a great many members
of the group who are not
accustomed to ICANN and
its SGs. We are therefore
asking them to vote on
something with which they
have no/little
experience. Not sure it
is going to prove to be a
useful survey.<br>
Stephanie Perrin<br>
<br>
On 2016-02-02 15:42,
Marika Konings wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear
All,<br>
<br>
As discussed, staff has
created a poll to
solicit the WG’s input
on the key
characteristics of the
RDS PDP WG Leadership
Team which we hope will
help inform the the WG’s
deliberations on this
topic during next week’s
meeting. This poll will
be followed by a second
poll later this week
which will allow WG
members to indicate
which candidates they
would like to endorse
for the leadership team.
To participate in the
poll, please go to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://s.zoomerang.com/r/RDSPDPWGleadership" target="_blank">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://s.zoomerang.com/r/RDSPDPWGleadership">https://s.zoomerang.com/r/RDSPDPWGleadership</a></a>. If you have
difficulties accessing
this page and/or
completing the poll,
please contact me
off-list.<br>
<br>
Please note that this
poll is for WG members
only. If you are an
observer and want to
become a member of the
WG, please contact the
GNSO secretariat at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org">gnso-secs@icann.org</a></a>.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Marika<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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