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I too want to support the positions of Stephanie and Klaus with
respect to the role of legal advice here, but from a slightly
different perspective. It is always the case, though frequently
ignored, that expertise only has relevance in context. In medicine
that is "Scope of Practice" and venturing outside one's scope of
practice can result in serious repercussions. In the case of legal
advice the risk is different. It is not that lawyers venture outside
their scope of practice. (<i>No IP lawyers involved in ICANN would
consider representing me in a divorce case </i><span
class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span>.) The risk of
bringing in legal advice in too early is that the legal advice is
used to shape the context of the issue. While influencing context in
advance is common strategy in partisan politics, it is a bad
practice in setting good public interest policy. <br>
<br>
We hammer out desirable solutions and legal advice helps to nail
down their legal dimensions. If legal advice says something won't
fly, we argue that and then maybe go back to the drawing board for
more work. That may be a bit slower but it is better than handing
the drawing board and the paint brush to lawyers who also represent
clients with private interests (Stephanie's "privacy goalies"). We
won't like the picture they paint.<br>
<br>
Sam L. (NPOC)<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i>On 4/27/2016 8:28 AM, Klaus Stoll
wrote:</i><i><br>
</i></div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5720B057.4040200@gmail.com" type="cite"><i> </i>
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<i> I want to support strongly the observations made by Stephanie.
In our case legal advise is not an art form that is based on
solid foundations but the shifting sands of personal and
corporate interests. Legal observations should inspire our
conversation but not guide us. We should in our deliberations
not be limited by legal arguments but our solutions should be
tested by legal standards after we come up with some conclusions
and recommendations. Yes, lets park some of the questions in an
legal parking lot and you will also see that some cars parked
are after some weeks have been deemed obsolete.</i><i><br>
</i><i> </i><i><br>
</i><i> Beware of billable hours!</i><i><br>
</i><i> </i><i><br>
</i><i> Klaus</i><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2016 4:34 AM, Stephanie
Perrin wrote:<br>
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<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I agree whole
heartedly, and although I am not at liberty to discuss
what the EWG did with respect to legal analysis, I believe
I may say that in my view it was very inadequate. We need
a very balanced legal analysis from many perspectives, and
in my view until we bring in legal experts from places
like the Council of Europe and the data protection
authorities, we will not have done the job. Outside
counsel in the privacy field, if I may say, would not be
sufficient, as most lawyers practicing in this area are
what we refer to as privacy goalies, defending their
clients from possible complaints and attack. Even
selecting legal scholars could be fraught with
controversy, but we certainly need representation from
this group as well. Further complicating factors are that
for the next couple of years, many billable hours are to
be had as Europe figures out how to implement the Data
Protection Regulation, and the upcoming electronic
communications privacy directive...getting volunteers for
this committee might be tough when there are so many
business opportunities for privacy lawyers.<span
class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)</span></span> Perhaps
it might be useful if we set up a parking lot for legal
questions, so that we have a fulsome set of issues to
discuss when it comes time to create a legal forum. I
have a few already.....</font></font><br>
</p>
Stephanie<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-04-26 20:59, Greg Aaron
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This note is especially directed to the
WG leaders. I am wondering at what point the Working
Group secures legal support. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Our current round of document review
reminds me of how complex the legal issues are --
including privacy and data protection law, law
enforcement, contracts, and legal jurisdictions. There is
the expectation that our WG will make policies designed to
address various legal problems and requirements, and that
those policies will be in place for years to come. So it
is imperative that we get things right. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The WG has access to a number of
documents, and the WG has some fine legal experts on it,
but this may not be enough. Our legal-eagle members hail
from certain jurisdictions, and there may be gaps in their
geographic expertise. They also have day jobs and as
volunteers may not be able to do all the lifting and
research that may eventually be needed. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also see gaps in the ICANN processes
to date, and therefore in the resulting documents. In
2012 the WHOIS Policy Review Team laid out some of the
legal issues, but it was not for that group to analyze the
issues and potential solutions in any depth. Then the EWG
proposed a specific solution, but provided fairly little
in the way of legal analysis and justification, and it is
unclear what legal advice the EWG received, beyond a memo
prepared by the ICANN legal staff. For example, the EWG
report doesn’t even contain a reference to EU Article 29.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The IANA transition was another
complicated issue, and the transition CWG received
dedicated assistance in the form of neutral outside legal
counsel. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am curious about whether the RDS WG
leadership has given thought to this issue, and how to
manage it over time.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">--Greg Aaron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">P.S.: Legal support also strikes me as
an excellent use of the nTLD application and auction
proceeds …although I suppose that’s another matter!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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"It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
in an unjust state" -Confucius
邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也
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Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar)
Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lanfran@Yorku.ca">Lanfran@Yorku.ca</a> Skype: slanfranco
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Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852</pre>
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