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    <p>Define "crimes in action" and "threats", but with place yourself
      in the shoes of your Turkish counterparts while doing so. Still
      feel that same level of access is warranted?</p>
    <p>Volker<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 25.07.2016 um 18:27 schrieb Nick
      Shorey:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CACrcH9o+6x1Tr+b39bV+Qv8ap09tBGj3AmxhBebf8Vs3k+HjNQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Yep certainly wouldn't want to jump the gun Volker.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Use case: Governments use the WHOIS to investigate with
          'crimes in action', and the current level of access enables
          them to mitigate threats in a timely manner.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=)</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Nick</div>
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                                                          <div><b><span></span><span></span>Nick
                                                          Shorey
                                                          BA(Hons) MSc.</b></div>
                                                          <div>Senior
                                                          Policy Advisor
                                                          | Global
                                                          Internet
                                                          Governance</div>
                                                          <div>Department
                                                          for Culture,
                                                          Media &amp;
                                                          Sport</div>
                                                          <div>HM
                                                          Government |
                                                          United Kingdom</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nick.shorey@culture.gov.uk"
                                                          target="_blank">nick.shorey@culture.gov.uk</a></div>
                                                          <div>Tel: +44
                                                          (0)7741 256
                                                          320</div>
                                                          <div>Skype:
                                                          nick.shorey</div>
                                                          <div>Twitter:
                                                          @nickshorey</div>
                                                          <div>LinkedIn:
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin</a></div>
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        <div class="gmail_quote">On 25 July 2016 at 12:45, Volker
          Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <p>I think we are jumping the gun again. Let's rather
                focus on the use cases and how they should be
                structured. <br>
              </p>
              <div>
                <div class="h5"> <br>
                  <div>Am 25.07.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Nick Shorey:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">Thanks everyone for sharing these
                      useful articles. Would love to meet Krebs some
                      day.
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>As Rod mentioned, WHOIS often being the first
                        point of research in many LEA investigations,
                        and though whilst it might not always be the
                        ultimate 'smoking gun' piece of evidence
                        presented in court, the importance of WHOIS data
                        in the initial stages of an investigation must
                        not be underplayed.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Another observation I'd make is that with
                        things like malware, online pharmacies and
                        threat to life scenarios where WHOIS data can be
                        crucial, we're often dealing with what I call
                        'crime in action'. The quicker you can build a
                        holistic understanding of the threat, the more
                        impactive your action can be - and the fewer
                        people that get harmed.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>The current level of access to WHOIS
                        definitely supports 'timely' investigation which
                        can make a huge difference in such cases, and as
                        we get further down the track on this PDP, I
                        think its important to note this element in our
                        deliberations.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Keep up the great work.</div>
                      <div><br>
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                      <div>Nick</div>
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                                                          <div><b><span></span><span></span>Nick
                                                          Shorey
                                                          BA(Hons) MSc.</b></div>
                                                          <div>Senior
                                                          Policy Advisor
                                                          | Global
                                                          Internet
                                                          Governance</div>
                                                          <div>Department
                                                          for Culture,
                                                          Media &amp;
                                                          Sport</div>
                                                          <div>HM
                                                          Government |
                                                          United Kingdom</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nick.shorey@culture.gov.uk"
                                                          target="_blank">nick.shorey@culture.gov.uk</a></div>
                                                          <div>Tel: +44
                                                          (0)7741 256
                                                          320</div>
                                                          <div>Skype:
                                                          nick.shorey</div>
                                                          <div>Twitter:
                                                          @nickshorey</div>
                                                          <div>LinkedIn:
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin</a></div>
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                      <div class="gmail_quote">On 21 July 2016 at 00:28,
                        Greg Shatan <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
                            target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                        wrote:<br>
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                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">While
                              we're at it, Krebs also covered a case
                              that I worked on in its early stages:  <a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/07/serial-swatter-stalker-and-doxer-mir-islam-gets-just-1-year-in-jail/"
                                target="_blank">http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/07/serial-swatter-stalker-and-doxer-mir-islam-gets-just-1-year-in-jail/</a>. 
                              One of my clients had sensitive
                              information (a credit report, illegally
                              acquired, along with social security
                              number, bank account information, etc.,
                              etc.) exposed on a website run by Mir
                              Islam; a number of other people had credit
                              reports and other information posted. 
                              Through a combination of Whois (both ccTLD
                              and gTLD) and Zone File information and
                              other available information, we were able
                              to get the site taken offline, but not
                              before significant distress and potential
                              for damage occurred.  The site went back
                              up (and quicklydown) several more times,
                              as shadier and shadier web hosts were
                              used.  The FBI and Secret Service quickly
                              got involved, and further work shifted to
                              them, thought we were kept informed (to
                              the extent possible) of their activities
                              in shutting this operation down.  I didn't
                              realize until I read the Krebs article how
                              much other tortious and criminal activity
                              this person and his colleagues were
                              involved in.</div>
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">During
                              this case, I had to research the potential
                              consequences of an adult changing their
                              social security number (it's not easy, but
                              it can be done).  The consequences are not
                              pretty, because your credit history,
                              medical history and a lot of other
                              information is tied to your social
                              security number.  When you change a social
                              security number, none of that transfers
                              over, so you have to go through a lot of
                              steps to put your life back together. 
                              Ultimately, the solution seemed worse than
                              the problem, especially since we were able
                              to get the site taken down so quickly.</div>
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                              style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
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                                                      <p><b><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#002e62">Gregory
                                                          S. Shatan |
                                                          Partner<br>
                                                          </span></b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">McCARTER
                                                          &amp; ENGLISH,
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style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#777777">BOSTON |
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                                <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20,
                                  2016 at 3:35 PM, Terri Stumme <span
                                    dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:terri.stumme@legitscript.com"
                                      target="_blank">terri.stumme@legitscript.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                  wrote:<br>
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                                    style="margin:0 0 0
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                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">I
                                        would like to weigh in here and
                                        recommend, because we all have
                                        so much extra time, that you
                                        take a few minutes to read the
                                        following article  (there are
                                        many others) and Wikipedia bio
                                        related to Paul LeRoux,
                                        specifically, please read
                                        Section 3, RX Limited in the
                                        Wikipedia bio. It is important
                                        to point out that Paul LeRoux's
                                        company, ABSystems was an ICANN
                                        accredited registrar. Not only
                                        was he running one of the
                                        largest Internet pharmacy
                                        networks, he was the SPAM king
                                        and responsible for much (not
                                        all) of the Internet pharmacy
                                        spam everyone has likely
                                        received at some point in time.
                                        It is also important to point
                                        out that -- there are others!</div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://news.vice.com/article/paul-e-roux-joseph-hunter-rambo-the-dea-meth-and-cocaine"
                                          target="_blank">https://news.vice.com/article/paul-e-roux-joseph-hunter-rambo-the-dea-meth-and-cocaine</a>)</div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul-Le_Roux"
                                          target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul-Le_Roux</a>)</div>
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                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Background:
                                        This DEA case began with the
                                        investigation of LeRoux's online
                                        pharmacy business (I worked at
                                        DEA for 16-1/2 years, ten of
                                        which I spent working in the
                                        Internet pharmacy investigations
                                        section). The RX Limited network
                                        was comprised of approximately
                                        25,000 domain names, and this
                                        investigation, as well as all
                                        Internet pharmacy
                                        investigations, begin with
                                        collecting WHOIS and DNS
                                        information for the domain
                                        names. Typically there are
                                        several individuals and
                                        organizations involved in the
                                        operation of an online pharmacy
                                        network, and typically there are
                                        hundreds of domain names
                                        affiliated with the network.
                                        WHOIS information is critical to
                                        the investigation, and is
                                        utilized to map out the network
                                        and identify domain name
                                        ownership. Even if bogus WHOIS
                                        information is utilized, it is
                                        still pertinent -- perhaps the
                                        same bogus information is given
                                        for more than one domain name.
                                        We then know that those domain
                                        names with the same bogus
                                        information are likely part of
                                        the same network.</div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Over
                                        the years, there have been
                                        several requests from ICANN and
                                        registrars for LE to provide
                                        case examples. I cannot tell you
                                        the number of times I wish I
                                        were able to talk about this
                                        particular case. The reality is
                                        that talking about ongoing
                                        investigations, and even certain
                                        aspects of closed investigations
                                        is forbidden. There is a trust
                                        factor that must be considered
                                        here -- we are not making this
                                        stuff up -- it's real, and there
                                        is very dangerous criminal
                                        activity happening facilitated
                                        via the Internet, and whatever
                                        we need to do to curb this
                                        activity should be the goal of
                                        any upstanding, moral,
                                        law-abiding individual
                                        (organization).</div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">I
                                        do not claim to have all the
                                        answers here, nor how we get to
                                        where we need to be, but I
                                        firmly believe that open,
                                        unrestricted access to WHOIS
                                        information that includes no
                                        fewer data points than what is
                                        currently available, is
                                        absolutely critical.<br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_default"
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_extra">
                                        <div>
                                          <div><br>
                                            <div class="gmail_quote">On
                                              Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:04
                                              AM, Mark Svancarek via
                                              gnso-rds-pdp-wg <span
                                                dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>&gt;</span>
                                              wrote:<br>
                                              <blockquote
                                                class="gmail_quote"
                                                style="margin:0 0 0
                                                .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                #ccc
                                                solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                <div link="blue"
                                                  vlink="purple"
                                                  lang="EN-US">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Here’s
                                                        one that was
                                                        used during a
                                                        criminal
                                                        investigation
                                                        though it was
                                                        found by
                                                        non-law-enforcement
                                                        people.</span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/20/3672201/alleged-dylann-roof-racist-manifesto-revealed/"
target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/20/3672201/alleged-dylann-roof-racist-manifesto-revealed/</a></span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-4347374077623813855_m_-5786202095474220245_m_-8159019314153622291_m_4762267710339249907__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></a></p>
                                                    <span></span>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div
                                                        style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                        #e1e1e1
                                                        1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                        0in 0in 0in">
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Rod
                                                          Rasmussen
                                                          [mailto:<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rrasmussen@infoblox.com" target="_blank">rrasmussen@infoblox.com</a>]
                                                          <br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Tuesday, July
                                                          19, 2016 5:25
                                                          PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Mounier,
                                                          Grégory &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu"
                                                          target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          Chuck Gomes
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cgomes@verisign.com" target="_blank">cgomes@verisign.com</a>&gt;;
                                                          Mark Svancarek
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marksv@microsoft.com" target="_blank">marksv@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
                                                          Andrew
                                                          Sullivan &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
                                                          target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>&gt;;
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re:
                                                          [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
                                                          @EXT WHOIS
                                                          info and
                                                          investigation</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Krebs
                                                          is always a
                                                          great read -
                                                          really knows
                                                          his stuff
                                                          technically
                                                          and as a
                                                          journalist. 
                                                          If you liked
                                                          this, check
                                                          out his book
                                                          Spam Nation
                                                          for a whole
                                                          history of
                                                          this and some
                                                          of the main
                                                          actors behind
                                                          it throughout
                                                          most of the
                                                          last ten
                                                          years.</p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">This
                                                          is a fairly
                                                          typical OSINT
                                                          (Open Source
                                                          Intelligence)
                                                          type of
                                                          investigation. 
                                                          You’d think
                                                          criminal
                                                          “masterminds”
                                                          wouldn’t use
                                                          horrible
                                                          operational
                                                          security
                                                          practices like
                                                          using their
                                                          same personal
                                                          information on
                                                          social media
                                                          accounts,
                                                          malicious and
                                                          personal
                                                          domain
                                                          registrations,
                                                          embedded in
                                                          malcode, or in
                                                          e-mails.  Yet
                                                          they do every
                                                          day and this
                                                          is a major
                                                          source of
                                                          cybersecurity
                                                          professionals
                                                          being able to
                                                          track down all
                                                          manner of
                                                          undesirable
                                                          Internet
                                                          activities
                                                          from services
                                                          abuse to
                                                          flat-out
                                                          illegal acts
                                                          in most if not
                                                          all
                                                          jurisdictions.</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">A
                                                          couple of
                                                          additional
                                                          things to
                                                          note.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">1)
                                                          Law
                                                          enforcement
                                                          had nothing to
                                                          do with this
                                                          particular
                                                          story/investigation. 
                                                          This is true
                                                          for most
                                                          cybersecurity
                                                          operational
                                                          activity and
                                                          investigations
                                                          - it’s largely
                                                          a
                                                          private-sector
                                                          affair with
                                                          security
                                                          companies of
                                                          various
                                                          flavors
                                                          looking at the
                                                          malware, spam,
                                                          malvertizing,
                                                          etc. that
                                                          crosses their
                                                          paths.  From
                                                          that starting
                                                          point they try
                                                          to figure out
                                                          things like
                                                          what else is
                                                          tied to it (so
                                                          I can block or
                                                          kill it), or
                                                          “who’s doing
                                                          this”, or
                                                          “what are they
                                                          really up to?”</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">  </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">2)
                                                          There are a
                                                          lot of
                                                          “established”
                                                          service
                                                          providers
                                                          around the
                                                          world that
                                                          have heavy
                                                          levels of
                                                          abuse on them
                                                          over a very
                                                          long time.  It
                                                          is really hard
                                                          at times to
                                                          separate “bad
                                                          guys” from
                                                          “incompetent”
                                                          or “uncaring"
                                                          operators. 
                                                          Collection of
                                                          data like this
                                                          can lead to
                                                          connections
                                                          between
                                                          various
                                                          activities
                                                          that can put a
                                                          much better
                                                          color on their
                                                          hats.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">3)
                                                          To then bring
                                                          charges that
                                                          could actually
                                                          affect a
                                                          subject’s life
                                                          though, any
                                                          and all of
                                                          this kind of
                                                          research is
                                                          merely a
                                                          starting point
                                                          that the
                                                          police then
                                                          use to inform
                                                          a much more
                                                          traditional
                                                          investigation
                                                          that involves
                                                          formal records
                                                          requests,
                                                          court-ordered
                                                          actions like
                                                          search
                                                          warrants or
                                                          wiretaps, etc.
                                                          so they can
                                                          develop court
                                                          admissible
                                                          evidence. A
                                                          whois query
                                                          result is not
                                                          evidence, and
                                                          no one gets
                                                          thrown in jail
                                                          for having a
                                                          dodgy domain
                                                          registered in
                                                          their name.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Rod</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Jul 19, 2016,
                                                          at 3:03 PM,
                                                          Mounier,
                                                          Grégory &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu"
                                                          target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                                          style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Dear
                                                          all,<span> </span><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Here is a nice
                                                          example of how
                                                          WHOIS
                                                          information is
                                                          used to
                                                          investigate
                                                          unlawful
                                                          activities:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/07/carbanak-gang-tied-to-russian-security-firm/"
target="_blank">http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/07/carbanak-gang-tied-to-russian-security-firm/</a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Greg</span><strong><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"></span></strong></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
                                                          style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">
                                                          <hr
                                                          align="center"
                                                          size="2"
                                                          width="100%">
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
                                                          style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><span> </span>on
                                                          behalf of
                                                          Gomes, Chuck<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>18
                                                          July 2016
                                                          20:26:34<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span> </span>'Mark
                                                          Svancarek';
                                                          'Andrew
                                                          Sullivan';<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] An important technical consideration about nature of
                                                          the service
                                                          (was Re: The
                                                          overflowing
                                                          list )</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"></span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks
                                                          Mark.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Chuck<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          -----Original
                                                          Message-----<br>
                                                          From: Mark
                                                          Svancarek [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:marksv@microsoft.com"
                                                          target="_blank">mailto:marksv@microsoft.com</a>]<span> </span><br>
                                                          Sent: Monday,
                                                          July 18, 2016
                                                          1:40 PM<br>
                                                          To: Gomes,
                                                          Chuck; 'Andrew
                                                          Sullivan';<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                                          Subject: RE:
                                                          [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
                                                          An important
                                                          technical
                                                          consideration
                                                          about nature
                                                          of the service
                                                          (was Re: The
                                                          overflowing
                                                          list )<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I'll take a
                                                          stab at it. <span> </span><br>
                                                          I've also
                                                          asked our
                                                          IP/Brand
                                                          people and
                                                          digital crimes
                                                          people to help
                                                          me document
                                                          how Microsoft
                                                          uses WhoIs
                                                          data today,
                                                          but not ETA
                                                          when that will
                                                          be ready.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          -----Original
                                                          Message-----<br>
                                                          From:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><span> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
                                                          On Behalf Of
                                                          Gomes, Chuck<br>
                                                          Sent:
                                                          Saturday, July
                                                          16, 2016 6:29
                                                          AM<br>
                                                          To: 'Andrew
                                                          Sullivan' &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
                                                          target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>&gt;;<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                                          Subject: Re:
                                                          [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
                                                          An important
                                                          technical
                                                          consideration
                                                          about nature
                                                          of the service
                                                          (was Re: The
                                                          overflowing
                                                          list )<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Any volunteers
                                                          to develop
                                                          Andrew's
                                                          suggestions
                                                          into use
                                                          cases?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Chuck<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          -----Original
                                                          Message-----<br>
                                                          From:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><span> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
                                                          On Behalf Of
                                                          Andrew
                                                          Sullivan<br>
                                                          Sent:
                                                          Saturday, July
                                                          16, 2016 1:00
                                                          AM<br>
                                                          To:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
                                                          target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
                                                          Subject:
                                                          [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
                                                          An important
                                                          technical
                                                          consideration
                                                          about nature
                                                          of the service
                                                          (was Re: The
                                                          overflowing
                                                          list )<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Thanks,
                                                          Stephanie, for
                                                          the quick
                                                          issue list. 
                                                          There's one
                                                          thing that I
                                                          want to draw
                                                          out here so
                                                          that we can
                                                          keep it
                                                          foremost when
                                                          thinking of<br>
                                                          issues:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On Sat, Jul
                                                          16, 2016 at
                                                          12:05:10AM
                                                          -0400,
                                                          Stephanie
                                                          Perrin wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &gt;  * Where
                                                          the RDS
                                                          (whether a
                                                          central
                                                          database or
                                                          federated or
                                                          completely<br>
                                                          &gt;   
                                                          disaggregated)
                                                          resides
                                                          becomes
                                                          important for
                                                          law
                                                          enforcement
                                                          access.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          This "where
                                                          data resides"
                                                          issue is bound
                                                          to vex us, no
                                                          matter what
                                                          kind of policy
                                                          we come up
                                                          with.  But
                                                          it's really
                                                          important to
                                                          keep in mind
                                                          that the
                                                          different
                                                          styles of
                                                          system design
                                                          will yield
                                                          very different
                                                          properties.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          In the
                                                          taxonomy I
                                                          offered before<br>
                                                          (<a
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                                                          models I and V
                                                          have a clear
                                                          since answer
                                                          to, "Where
                                                          does the data
                                                          reside?"
                                                          because they
                                                          have a single
                                                          database
                                                          backing them
                                                          up.  In models
                                                          II-IV,
                                                          however, the
                                                          answer to,
                                                          "Where does
                                                          the data
                                                          reside?" is
                                                          actually not
                                                          entirely
                                                          meaningful. 
                                                          There are
                                                          multiple
                                                          places where
                                                          the data are,
                                                          and for data
                                                          with respect
                                                          to any given
                                                          domain name
                                                          each datum
                                                          might be in a
                                                          different
                                                          place. 
                                                          (Indeed, part
                                                          of the design
                                                          of RDAP is
                                                          precisely to
                                                          make such
                                                          arrangements
                                                          easier to deal
                                                          with.)<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          It is
                                                          therefore
                                                          better to try
                                                          to find a way,
                                                          consistent
                                                          with all of
                                                          the various
                                                          requirements
                                                          documents, to
                                                          answer some
                                                          other
                                                          questions.<br>
                                                          I think these
                                                          might be
                                                          helpful in
                                                          building use
                                                          cases:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              1.  For
                                                          any given
                                                          datum, who has
                                                          control of and
                                                          access to the
                                                          datum?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              2.  For
                                                          any given
                                                          datum, what
                                                          are the
                                                          conditions
                                                          under which
                                                          the<br>
                                                              datum
                                                          ought to be
                                                          accessible?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              3.  For
                                                          any given set
                                                          of related
                                                          data, how can
                                                          it be
                                                          accessed?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Notice that
                                                          answering (3)
                                                          will provides
                                                          use cases for
                                                          data access,
                                                          whereas (1)
                                                          and (2)
                                                          provide for
                                                          limit
                                                          conditions on
                                                          how and when
                                                          use cases
                                                          might be
                                                          apply.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I hope these
                                                          framing
                                                          questions are
                                                          helpful in
                                                          figuring out
                                                          which use
                                                          cases we can
                                                          bring to bear
                                                          on
                                                          requirements.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Best regards,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          A<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          --<br>
                                                          Andrew
                                                          Sullivan<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br>
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                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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                                        <span><font color="#888888">-- <br>
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                    <pre>_______________________________________________
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              </div>
              <pre cols="72">-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.



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