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<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px;"><div><span lang="EN-GB">Thanks Dick. I think you and Greg have made the point that intelligence services are generally not so quick to share their data with the dog catcher. However, if you are going to offer offline tutorials, may we beg a digest of those tutorials for the list? It is hard to get good information on these actual practices. Some of the legislative and policy initiatives in western democracies to share data between investigative agencies, not to mention further investment in big data techniques for profiling without disclosure (not the technical term but I am sure you know what I am referring to) would lead one to conclude that such data sharing is well in hand.</span></div></blockquote><div><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">Totally
agree, Stephanie. There has to be oversight of these practices; it simply is
not good enough for intelligence agencies to be Judge, Jury, Executioner, and
Court Stenographer — and expect to be trusted, blindly, that they behave in an ethical and appropriate manner.</span></div><div><font><br></font></div><div>I would
like to hear more from those in the intelligence communities around their
internal ethical controls, what oversight governs what data is collected and
how it is used, and how, say, WHOIS records are being blended together with other
data sources to identify someone.</div><div><font><br></font></div><div>- Ayden</div><img align="left" width="0" height="0" style="border:0; width:0px; height:0px;" src="https://app.mixmax.com/api/track/v2/H0FydhtQYePgtr7tg/i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI/icmcv5ibuF2YpB0Z31CckBXLzRmct82cudmI/?sc=false" alt="">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<p data-m-apply-default-font="true"><br></p>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 3:58 PM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Thanks Dick.� I think
you and Greg have made the point that intelligence services
are generally not so quick to share their data with the dog
catcher.� However, if you are going to offer offline tutorials,
may we beg a digest of those tutorials for the list?� It is
hard to get good information on these actual practices.� Some
of the legislative and policy initiatives in western democracies
to share data between investigative agencies, not to mention
further investment in big data techniques for profiling
without disclosure (not the technical term but I am sure you
know what I am referring to) would lead one to conclude that
such data sharing is well in hand.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Best regards<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">stephanie perrin</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div>On 2016-08-05 5:49, Richard Leaning
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:9693DB7A-D75B-4F12-897E-40D477F752F9@ripe.net" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Rob,
Not sure where to start on this response, i will try and keep it short.
Am not sure that by speaking to one ex FBI agent and couple of Police officers in Sheffield is a true reflection of the Global LEA position on this WG. It concerns me greatly that you take this view.
Its a big +1 to Greg Mounier, Greg Aaron and Terri.
As an ex Senior Detective from the UK having just retired last year after 30 years service, spending the last 7 years or so involved investigating Cyber crime Nationally and Internationally within SOCA, NCA and then EC3 (European Cyber Crime Centre - Europol) am more than happy to spend some time with you outside this group to explain the difference between the Intelligence services and LEA.
Also as am now be working for RIPE NCC (a RIR) as a Consultant am also happy at the same time, explain to you about the RIPE Database.
Kind Regards
Dick
Richard Leaning
External Relations
RIPE NCC
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 4 Aug 2016, at 21:20, Rob Golding <a href="mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com"><rob.golding@astutium.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">note that:
Any customer of an RIR has its contact data published in RIR WHOIS
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Which is of course no different to saying "Any customer of a Registry (aka Registrar) has it's contact data published"
And in practice it's _most_ customers of _most_ RIRs - lots of the lookups for certain regions just-don�t-work (tm) and with the amount of 'funkiness' that goes on with IPv4 routing post-runout, what details you see on an IP lookup at an RIR has little-to-no bearing now on who is actually using it
- what you're able to see is "who should be (directly or indirectly) paying the RIRs fees"
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Yet IP Whois will usually only yield the webhost or the IS. How is having to ask them for the data any different from having to ask the registrar.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I would say it's not any different at all in effect, but may be less likely to yield a response due to the limited "policy" capabilities when it comes to "unregulated" industries.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Are LEAs lobbying for webhost and internet subscriber public whois?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I feel I should suggest that they can probably just extract the data from the NSA or GCHQ or their-local-equivalent, so no need to make it "public" ;)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I will be interested in learning however law enforcement manages to do its job without this needed and useful data
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
The caveats being that "useful" is subjective and "needed" depends on circumstances.
I don't see anyone suggesting that there shouldn�t be methods in place so that Law Enforcement can do their job.
I do however think that the concept of punishing everyone because there are a very small %age of "bad actors" is, in a civilised society, not even remotely appropriate.
Rob
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<br><br><div>Ayden Férdeline</div><div><a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsosoi/Ayden+Férdeline+SOI" style="background-color: white;">Statement of Interest</a></div>
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