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<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I have a hunch you
have been in one too many CWG meetings Greg....take the
weekend off! Before you start typing in caps. possibly in
pink font....(not to be taken as an accusatory comment, of
course....)</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">cheers Stephanie</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-08-19 20:05, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUQ6pUbsSO+FdOdyy3_dVZkQEMmXOePCuib=BwDcqfxewg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Stephanie,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
Thank you for clarifying upon what you were commenting. Since
your comment came as a reply to Chuck's comment, I thought you
were commenting on that comment, and not on the underlying
exchange of comments. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">That said, I did not
find (the other) Greg's (not to be confused with the other
other Greg) comments accusatory, either. Just wanted to
clarify that. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">To be consistent with
my prior statement that I would not comment on comments, etc.,
I will refrain from any further comments on comments, etc., in
this thread at this time (reserving the right to revert at
some future time and comment on comments, etc., in the event
that commenting on comments, etc., becomes so prevalent that I
need not eschew commenting on comments, etc., as my attempt to
staunch an infinite comment-loop will have been for naught and
thus rendered moot; having not reached such point (thankfully)
I will go on mute).</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg (S.)</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 7:23 PM,
Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I beg your
pardon, I was referring to the discussion between
Greg and Ayden, not Chuck's intervention.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">this is of
course a comment on the comment.....but not on the
other comment.</font></font></p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Stephanie</font></font><br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div>On 2016-08-19 19:20, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I did not
find Chuck's comments in any way "accusatory."
If anything, I found them well-considered and
admirable in their restraint.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If
anything, Chuck's intervention may have
prevented "accusatory" comments from making
their way to the list. As such, I would suggest
that Chuck's comments were an exercise in
"de-escalation."</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In that
vein, I will refrain from commenting on
comments, or commenting on comments about
comments or commenting on comments about
comments about comments, though if I wanted to
comment on comments or comments on comments or
comments on comments on comments, I would have
comments to make. But I won't.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at
7:08 PM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">Gentlemen, with great respect,
I think you are being a bit hard on
Ayden here. If, as our next-gen rep
here on the group, he were not
questioning authority, I might be
afraid he had somehow "missed the
memo". I think the tone has become a
bit accusatory on both sides and we
should de-escalate. I agree that we
must be exceedingly careful about
putting words in each others mouths.
However, questioning the efficacy of
oversight of police data protection
compliance is fair game in my view and
in the view of most privacy scholars
(Korff, Brown, Bennett and Raab,
Anderson etc.). Diana Alonso Blass
(who came to ICANN in 2003 or 04
representing the Article 29 Working
Party) and now of Eurojust speaks
regularly on some of these issues at
the data protection commissioners'
annual conference and at CPDP and
there can be heated debate. Oversight
of law enforcement, particularly cross
border law enforcement, is difficult
just as the actual law enforcement is
difficult. There are many reasons for
this:</font></font></p>
<ul>
<li><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">law enforcement authorities
have (legitimate) exemptions under
data protection law for collection
use and disclosure, making it easy
to accidently abuse that discretion
<br>
</font></font></li>
<li><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">Data protection authorities
frequently choose to direct
enforcement actions in other areas,
given the constant shortage of
resources and the publicity
(reaching political uproar at
times) that can come with
enforcement against police<br>
</font></font></li>
<li><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">governments often take a dim
view of data protection
commissioners who go after the
police (I can cite examples if you
wish but I realize noone wants to
read an article on the difficulties
of dp oversight of law enforcement</font></font></li>
</ul>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">Some of the European DP
authorities testified in the 2014
inquiry into NSA surveillance....I
realize this is about intelligence,
but certainly Europol and cybercrime
were mentioned. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A7-2014-0139+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN"
target="_blank">http://www.europarl.europa.eu/<wbr>sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//<wbr>NONSGML+REPORT+A7-2014-0139+0+<wbr>DOC+PDF+V0//EN</a>.
Given the global nature of law
enforcement in our subject area, and
the perceived failure of certain
instruments such as the Cybercrime
treaty, and the general shock and
outrage expressed during the inquiry I
just cited, particularly over cross
border data sharing, I think it is
reasonable to question assertions of
compliance with data protection law.
You will find the list of witnesses in
the appendix. Jacob Kohnstamm was one
of them, as was Peter Hustinx, and let
me finally remind you of my favorite
quote from Kohnstamm</font> <font
face="Lucida Grande">'s 2012 letter to
Crocker: </font></font><br>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36.0pt;line-height:200%"><span
lang="EN-US">“The Working Party strongly
objects to the introduction of data
retention by means of a contract issued
by a private corporation in order to
facilitate (public) law enforcement.<span>
</span>If there is a pressing social
need for specific collections of
personal data to be available for law
enforcement, and the proposed data
retention is proportionate to the
legitimate aim pursued, it is up to
national governments to introduce
legislation that meets the demands of
article 8 of the European Convention on
Human Rights and article 17 of the
International Covenant on civil and
Political rights”. <span> </span>(Kohnstamm
to Crocker and Atallah, 26 September
2012).</span></p>
<p><font face="Lucida Grande" size="+1">The
bottom line here is that civil society
correctly has questions about the
efficacy of oversight. Please don't
take it personally, it is not meant that
way. It is our job to question. I would
agree that Europol has an excellent
oversight regime, in comparative terms,
(I wish we had it in North America) but
that does not mean it works all the
time. While we are not here to criticize
particular countries or regions, please
admit the idea of criticism in general.
It is important. <br>
<span><font color="#888888"> </font></span></font></p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p><font face="Lucida Grande" size="+1">Stephanie
Perrin</font><br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div> <br>
<div>On 2016-08-18 18:55, Gomes, Chuck
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ayden,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
appreciate your frequent
contributions because you share
some important concerns. But I
want to communicate some
concerns I have about how you
are doing that. Please see my
comments below.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chuck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ayden
Férdeline<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August
18, 2016 4:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mounier, Grégory<br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] @EXT: RE: Use
cases: Fundamental, Incidental,
and Theoretical</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Greg, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t
mean to sound provocative,
however I would like to make
sure I am interpreting your
comments correctly. Please see
inline below. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ayden</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--------
Original Message --------</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject:
@EXT: RE: Use cases:
Fundamental, Incidental, and
Theoretical</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Local Time:
August 18, 2016 7:00 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">UTC Time:
August 18, 2016 6:00 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu"
target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.europa<wbr>.eu</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com,gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com,gnso-rds-p<wbr>dp-wg@icann.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes
Greg: </span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">unlike
what Ayden seems to imply:
</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span></span><span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Europol
is not advocating that
personal information be
processed in a manner
inconsistent with European
law;</span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am pleased
to hear this. However, it the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://secure.edps.europa.eu/EDPSWEB/webdav/site/mySite/shared/Documents/Consultation/Comments/2014/14-04-17_EDPS_letter_to_ICANN_EN.pdf"
title="https://secure.edps.europa.eu/EDPSWEB/webdav/site/mySite/shared/Documents/Consultation/Comments/2014/14-04-17_EDPS_letter_to_ICANN_EN.pdf"
target="_blank"> opinion</a>
of the European Commission’s own
Data Protection Supervisor that
the data retention requirements
contained with the 2013 RAA and
the Draft Specification
“continue to fall short of
compliance with European data
protection law.” You have built
a use case around how the WHOIS
protocol operates today, which
itself contains data sourced
from registrars through
practices which are inconsistent
with the privacy laws of many
(all?) EU Member States.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] Greg did not say
that the 2013 RAA is
compliant with European
law; he only said Europol
is.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span></span><span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></span><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Europol
access and processing of
WHOIS information is in
line with European Data
protection rules;</span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am glad
that this is the case. Could you
please expand upon how, under
what circumstances, and how
frequently Europol currently
retrieves WHOIS records?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] This is a terribly
broad request and one that
I suspect may be very
difficult to respond to.
Europol is not the topic
of discussion . Insight
they can provide will be
helpful when we deliberate
just like your insights.
In all cases we will do
our best to validate
information we use.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span></span><span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></span><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Europol
does not “trawl” the
WHOIS;</span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you
saying, then, that you do not
find the WHOIS protocol useful
in solving crime? If you are not
collecting its records in bulk,
I would suggest that we revise
your use case of 25 July to
reflect this reality. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] He did not say
that. I encourage you to
avoid adding to what he
said.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We should
remove the reference to “Python
DNS scripts or domain tool API”
being utilised to identify
connections between DNS
information and potentially
troublesome websites, and
replace it with something which
respects the right to, say, due
process. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] Please remember
that our objective is not
to create perfect use
cases.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">After all,
illegal content like child abuse
material (which you flagged in
your use case) is just that –
illegal. Illegal material should
be dealt with in a legal manner.
You should not be advocating for
the circumvention of the rule of
law; to do so is a direct
violation of the human rights
standards that Europol has
committed itself to upholding.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] Who is advocating
for the “</span></i></b>the
circumvention of the rule of law<b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">”?
I think that the
implication you make here
is inappropriate.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span></span><span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></span><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Europol
is indeed subject to one
of the most stringent data
protection framework in
the LEA world. </span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Whether that
is reality or rhetoric, I do not
know. My gut feeling is that
Europol’s data protection
provisions are comprehensive in
theory, but critically
undermined by procedural
weakness. One example that comes
to mind: the Europol Joint
Supervisory Body is the
independent body which
supposedly monitors your
adherence to data protection
rules. However, it has no powers
of enforcement, it can only
“make any complaints it deems
necessary to the Director” of
Europol.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] I think it best if
you avoid criticizing
specific organizations and
stick to issues.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’ll
stop here because this is
only partially relevant to
this PDP.</span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My
understanding has been that some
politicians in the EU have been
reluctant to expand Europol’s
remit/mandate, given concerns
around effectiveness and a
perceived democratic deficit, so
it is fascinating to me to see
Europol working to expand its
powers and data collection
abilities in working groups such
as this one.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">[Chuck
Gomes] Once again I think
you are concluding more
than is reasonable and
also don’t find you
comment here constructive.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Greg</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b></span><span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Greg Shatan [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.co<wbr>m</a>]
</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<span><b>Sent:</b> 18 August
2016 19:49</span><br>
<span><b>To:</b> Mounier,
Grégory</span><br>
<span><b>Cc:</b> Ayden
Férdeline; RDS PDP WG</span><br>
<span><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] @EXT:
RE: Use cases:
Fundamental, Incidental,
and Theoretical</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg,</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">For the
rest of us who may not
be so well informed,
is there something
more we should
understand and take
into account in
considering this
particular
back-and-forth?</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks!</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg
Shatan</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu,
Aug 18, 2016 at 1:45 PM,
Mounier, Grégory <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu"
target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.europ<wbr>a.eu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dear
Ayden, </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
objected because
some of your
statements were
misinformed so I
thought that I
should help and
clarify. But it
seems that you are
very well informed
and that you don’t
need further
explanations </span></span><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best
regards, </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Greg</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b></span><span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Ayden Férdeline
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>]
</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<span><b>Sent:</b>
18 August 2016
19:27</span><br>
<span><b>To:</b>
Mounier, Grégory</span><br>
<span><b>Cc:</b> Rob
Golding; RDS PDP
WG</span><br>
<span><b>Subject:</b>
Re: @EXT: RE:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Use cases:
Fundamental,
Incidental, and
Theoretical</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank
you for the
response, Greg. I
did not mean to
suggest that Europol
was <b>wholly</b>exempt
from European data
protection
regulations, because
it is not. In my
original message, I
wrote: </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>"...your
agency is exempt
from <b>some</b>
of the general
provisions on data
processing." </i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
have bolded the word
‘some’ on this
occasion for
emphasis. When I
wrote that Europol
had exemptions from
<b>some</b>of the
general provisions
on data processing,
I was referring to
the Europol Council
Decision as
published in the
Official Journal of
the European Union
on 15 May 2009. I am
sure you are
intimately familiar
with this document,
as you cited it in
your email to me
today as providing
the “basis for
Europol to establish
and maintain
cooperative
relations with Union
or Community
institutions,
bodies, offices and
agencies; third
States and
organisations;
private parties and
private persons in
so far as it is
relevant to the
performance of its
tasks.” </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Aside
from this, this
decision contains
data processing
rules which were, to
quote you again in
your email,
"tailor-made" for
Europol, and is
complemented by a
set of
implementation
guidelines which
privilege Europol
with the ability to
process personal
data “for the
purpose of
prevention,
investigation,
detection and
prosecution of
criminal offences or
the execution of
criminal penalties”
in a manner that
would not be
permitted of other
stakeholders.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Given
this, I'm unsure as
to why you found my
comments so
objectionable, but I
hope this email has
brought about some
more clarity. If
not, I am happy to
expand upon my
thoughts.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ayden
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--------
Original Message
--------</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject:
@EXT: RE:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Use cases:
Fundamental,
Incidental, and
Theoretical</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Local
Time: August 18,
2016 5:54 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">UTC
Time: August 18,
2016 4:54 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregory.mounier@europol.europa.eu" target="_blank">gregory.mounier@europol.europa<wbr>.eu</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com,gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">rob.golding@astutium.com,gnso-<wbr>rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dear
Ayden, </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thank
you very much
for sharing
your concerns
and apologies
for the late
response, I
was away from
the office.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
am not sure
how you got
the perception
that Europol
was “trawling”
through WHOIS
records or
that Europol
was “exempt
from some of
the general
provisions on
data
processing” or
even that our
legal
framework
limited the
ability of
Europol staff
to process
data from
publicly
available
sources
related to
“terror
manuals” or
“criminals
claiming
credit for
attacks”.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
fact, I can
assure you
that <u>Europol
is not
exempted from
the general
provisions on
data
protection</u>.
European data
protection
legislation
has been
implemented in
the
organisation
with the aim
of creating a
legal
framework
which balances
the
fundamental
interests of
freedom and
security. The
tailor-made
set of rules
provides
Europol with
one of the
strongest,
most robust
data
protection
framework in
the world of
law
enforcement.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
far as data
exchange
inside the EU
is concerned,
Art.22-25 of
Europol
Council
Decision (ECD)
provides a
basis for
Europol to
establish and
maintain
cooperative
relations with
Union or
Community
institutions,
bodies,
offices and
agencies;
third States
and
organisations;
private
parties and
private
persons in so
far as it is
relevant to
the
performance of
its tasks.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Europol
exchanges
personal data
only with
third parties
which have an
adequate level
of data
protection.
The prior data
protection
assessment of
the third
party involves
a check on the
necessary data
protection
legislation
and
confidentiality
rules in place
and in
practice. The
list of the
third
countries with
which Europol
has
established an
operational
agreement is
published on
our website. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
addition,
Europol can
receive
information
from private
parties such
as companies,
business
associations
or non-profit
organisations.
As with any
transfer of
personal data,
this process
is subject to
data
protection
controls. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Last
but not least,
in line with
the respective
provisions of
the ECD,
Europol can
also retrieve
and process
data,
including
personal data,
from publicly
available
sources, such
as media and
public data
and commercial
intelligence
providers, in
accordance
with the data
protection
framework.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
hope that I
could clarify
some of the
issues you
raised. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Kind
regards, </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Greg</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b></span><span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Ayden
Férdeline [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">mailto:icann@ferdeline.com</a>]
</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<span><b>Sent:</b>
08 August 2016
14:11</span><br>
<span><b>To:</b>
Mounier,
Grégory</span><br>
<span><b>Cc:</b>
Rob Golding;
RDS PDP WG</span><br>
<span><b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
@EXT: RE: Use
cases:
Fundamental,
Incidental,
and
Theoretical</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<table
style="width:100.0%"
border="0"
cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0"
width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0in
0in 0in 0in"
valign="top">
<table
border="0"
cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0in
0in 0in 0in"
valign="top">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Greg,</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I am
disappointed
that Europol
seems to be
advocating
that personal
information be
processed in a
manner
inconsistent
with European
law.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I fully
appreciate
that, in order
to allow
Europol to
collect
sensitive
information
from the
Member States
in the pursuit
of
investigations,
your agency is
exempt from
some of the
general
provisions on
data
processing.
You are
permitted to
directly
retrieve and
process
information
obtained from
publicly-available sources, but the promotional literature on the
Europol
website
suggests
Europol agents
searching for
publicly-available ‘terror manuals’ or criminals claiming credit for
attacks. There
is no
indication
that this
includes
Europol
trawling
through things
like WHOIS
records to
identify the
administrator
of a website,
something far
less sinister.
And if the RDS
evolves into
something very
different from
what it is
today –
perhaps not
open to any
and everyone
to query, or
federated into
a single data
store – my
understanding
is that the
routing of
information
from a private
party to
Europol would
be subject to
European data
protection
controls and
safeguards.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The very
specific
exemptions
that Europol
has received
in order to
carry out its
work simply do
not call for
Europol to
advocate for a
lower standard
of privacy
protection for
European
residents in
privately-owned
or
publicly-accessible
sources of
information.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">There is
no doubt that
effective
police work
requires top
intelligence,
but equally as
important is
the employment
of sound data
protection
safeguards
which strike
an appropriate
balance
between the
interests of
freedom and
security.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Just my
$0.02.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">- Ayden</span></span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://app.mixmax.com/api/track/v2/PsCAAXCzeb1f72NwN/i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI/ISdl5SYw9mc1VmLs9GcvJXdlBkcllmb19WbukncvdWZydmI/gI5J3bnl6wydEIsIXZp5Wdv1kI?sc=false"
align="left"></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Thu, Aug 4,
2016 1:59 PM,
wrote:</p>
<p>Dear Rob, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks for
sharing the
outcome of
your chat with
ex-FBI and UK
LEA agents. I
feel that I
need to step
in to provide
a different
perspective
than the one
you just gave
on the law
enforcement
use of the
WHOIS. It
might be a
matter of
interpretation
but the views
expressed by
your
interlocutors
are not shared
by my
colleagues
working
throughout
European
police cyber
divisions. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If European
cyber
investigators
are obviously
all aware of
the fact that
WHOIS
registration
data can
sometime be
inaccurate and
not up-to-date
(ICANN
compliance
reported that
for the first
quarter of
2015, WHOIS
inaccuracy
comprised 74.0
% of
complaints),
in 90% of
cases they
will start
their
investigations
with a WHOIS
lookup. This
is really the
first step. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Despite the
lack of
accuracy,
WHOIS
information is
useful in so
many different
ways. One of
the first them
is to make
correlations
and link
pieces of
information
obtained
through other
means than
from the
WHOIS. This
was the point
I tried to
make on
Tuesday during
the conference
call. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Accurate
and reliable
WHOIS data
helps crime
attribution
and can save
precious
investigation
time (you can
rule out wrong
investigative
leads). </p>
<p>It raises
the bar and
makes it more
difficult for
criminals to
abuse domain
names. It
pushes them to
resort to more
complex
techniques
such as ID
theft to
register
domains for
malicious
purposes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In short,
for LEA WHOIS
is certainly
not the silver
bullet to
attribute
crime on line
but it is an
essential tool
in the tool
box of law
enforcement.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Best, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Greg</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>-----Original
Message-----</p>
<p>From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of
Rob Golding</p>
<p>Sent: 04
August 2016
01:46</p>
<p>To: RDS PDP
WG</p>
<p>Subject:
Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Use cases:
Fundamental,
Incidental,
and
Theoretical</p>
<p> </p>
<p>>>
Theoretical</p>
<p>>>
===========</p>
<p>>> We
have seen a
couple of
proposed use
cases that
seem to be
ideas </p>
<p>>>
that people
have for
useful or
harmful ways
that RDS can
be used, but </p>
<p>>>
that do not
exist today
(at least not
that anyone
can fully </p>
<p>>>
document).</p>
<p>>> </p>
<p>>>
For example,
there seems to
be a desire to
use the RDS as
a way to </p>
<p>>>
issue warrants
for
information
about
registrants.
While this may
be </p>
<p>>>
useful, this
is not
possible today
(even with
RDAP, I note).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It not only
is possible
today, it's
also "common"
(although
thankfully not
frequent)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Registrars
get served
warrants for
details about
registrants,
and the _only_
information
from WHOIS
that's
"needed" or
used for such
cases is the
name of the
Registrar.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I had the
pleasure of
meeting Chris
Tarbell,
ex-FBI Cyber
Crime, at
HostingCon
last week -
asked about
WHOIS/domain
data he said
"we dont use
it"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Last year
at the UKNOF
event in
Sheffield I
spent quite
some time
talking with
some amazing
people from
the UK
CyberCrime
departments -
asked the same
questions,
they confirmed
that although
whois _might_
be looked at
to see if it
matches _data
they already
have_ for
confirmation,
it's not used
or relied on.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Which
beggars the
question,
should
"LawEnforcement"
use cases even
be part of the
discussions ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rob</p>
<p>--</p>
<p>Rob Golding
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com" target="_blank">rob.golding@astutium.com</a></p>
<p>Astutium
Ltd, Number
One Poultry,
London. EC2R
8JR</p>
<p> </p>
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