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I agree there Greg, you need to look at the context of the data, I
like the examples. <br>
<br>
What is missing is a database so you can cross check the data. And
there lies the problem, there is no such database or tool available.
<br>
You would think if there is a commercial solution out there we would
have already started using that right? Such a tool would be used all
over I guess. <br>
<br>
But we don't, because it does not exist. Sure Fedex works nicely,
and they usually deliver most of the stuff you order, but there are
countries they heavily need to rely on asking directions, yes real
old school. <br>
<br>
Accuracy is important, the examples here are countless, but accuracy
should not be confused with trying to achieve the impossible.
Accuracy should be a realistic goal. I think most of us are on the
same page here. <br>
<br>
<br>
Best <br>
<br>
Theo <br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9-10-2016 22:12, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHURGhonckydEo8LPNjRmKmfYCs=hy5htQf=bQ_8+5k5VxQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Going back to my
earlier post, not all contact data is equally fault-tolerant.
Some can be resilient, some can be brittle. Data needs to be
looked at in context as well. Looking just at the dataset of
contact data we see in WHOIS, some mistakes or missing data
will result in non-contactability, while other mistakes or
missing data can be worked around with other data in the
dataset.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">For example, take my
old phone number -- 1-212-995-2768. In one sense, phone
numbers are not at all fault tolerant -- if you don't have all
the numbers right, you will not get through. In another
sense, some parts of a phone number are fault tolerant, while
others are not. For instance, if you have a missing country
code (1) but you have the area code or my address, you can
easily solve the missing country code problem. If you're
missing the area code, that's a bigger problem. Assuming it's
a landline and the area code is an accurate reflection of
geography, you could like at the address; however, my physical
address has 3 possible area codes, so that's not so simple.
If it were a mobile number, the missing area code could be
fatal, since my physical address could be anywhere in the
world. If any of the last 7 numbers are missing or
inaccurate, that's fatal in terms of "mechanical" solutions
coming from the rest of the dataset. Finally, note that I
said this was my <u>old</u> phone number -- even if all the
numbers are right you won't be able to reach me, because it's
an old number and calling it only tells you the number is no
longer in service.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Physical addresses can
also be fault tolerant, to an extent, without going beyond the
dataset. First, some information isn't entirely necessary.
You can leave out my zip code and I'll still get the mail,
perhaps a day or two late if it gets bumped out to manual
sorting, because the remaining information is sufficient.
Similarly, you can leave my apartment number off, and I'll
probably still get it, but it's no longer a certainty (I leave
in a 140-unit building and our regular mailman probably know
which apartment I'm in, but a substitute might not.). Leave
out my street name and I won't get it, even if all the other
information is correct, because the remaining information is
insufficient. Similarly, because I live in New York City, you
could leave out the state, but if I lived in Middletown, NY,
you can't, because there's a Middletown in the majority of US
states.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Analysis of fault
tolerance of particular data or using other data within the
dataset is appropriate in my view. However, I don't think
it's appropriate in our context to look at external solutions
to determine whether data is "functionally accurate," whether
it's Googling it, figuring it out or hiring a private
detective (or being a detective). This takes us out of the
realm of self-sufficient solutions, and in most cases, takes
us out of the realm of automated solutions, bringing in the
use of human resources on a case-by-case basis. It also takes
us largely out of the realm of rules-based solutions. These
fuzzy factors make it impossible to characterize any data type
as functionally accurate, because it depends on unknowns (as
far as the data at hand goes) in order to resolve an issue, if
it can be resolved at all. Even if contact can be can be
resolved in spite of the missing datum, the time, effort and
cost involved in doing so are orders of magnitude higher than
a solution using other data in the dataset.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Finally, I may be too
cavalier regarding the ability to resolve missing data using
other data in the dataset. It can depend on the user and the
purpose, and whether contact using fully accurate data is done
in a mechanized fashion for that user and purpose. It also
depends on the workflows and the capability to develop methods
to apply the remaining data to solve the problem posed by
missing data. I've assumed something of a reasonable best
case scenario in that regard, and skewed my thoughts to uses
I'm more familiar with; as a result, my working assumptions
regarding functional accuracy and the use of other data in the
dataset (or proceeding without certain data) may be too
optimistic.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Chris
Pelling <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">chris@netearth.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">
<div>HI Dick,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think you will find that all registrars will
already strive for accuracy as best they can,
certainly when it comes to email address and/or phone
depending on what they use to validate.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In your point regarding reaching you by phone or
email, I sort of agree, but disagree, if someone truly
(and this is in respect to you as you stated yourself)
wants to get hold of you, a very small bit of
investigation with Google would give Ripe's number and
a call to Ripe would in one way shapr or another get
ahold of you. -- Edge case I know, but I was directly
responding to that point.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suppose at some point in the future I am sure the
same discussions our group is having will trickle down
the IANA side of things in relation to RiR's moving
over to RDS and having the same data issues we are
currently discussing. :)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr id="m_-2131619718881213607zwchr">
<div><b>From: </b>"Richard Leaning" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rleaning@ripe.net" target="_blank">rleaning@ripe.net</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Michele Neylon" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, 9 October, 2016 18:09:39
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] For your
review - updated RDS Statement of Purpose<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>Michele,</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">I
don't disagree with you. There will always be
scenarios where common sense prevails.</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">But
if you want to phone me you will need the
accurate number - not something that looks like
my number.</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">If
you want to respond to me about these comments,
you will need the accurate email address not
something that is sort of my email address. </div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">All
am saying is we should strive for accuracy
knowing that we may not achieve it but at least
let's try. </div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">Cheers</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-2131619718881213607AppleMailSignature">Dick <br>
<br>
Richard Leaning
<div>RIPE NCC</div>
<div>External Relations</div>
<div>(Sent by iPhone)</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On 9 Oct 2016, at 13:41, Michele Neylon -
Blacknight <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com"
target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div
class="m_-2131619718881213607WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Dick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Sorry, but that’s
absolutely untrue. So I agree with Greg.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">I have been getting postal
mail for more than 30 years and over
that period my name, my gender and my
address have been listed inaccurately
hundreds of times.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Yet the postal services in
the various countries that I’ve lived in
have been able to get the mail to me.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">There is a very big
difference between “functional” and
“accurate”.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">As others have pointed out,
it’s often impossible to provide 100%
accurate addresses on web forms etc.,
Try updating your ESTA for a visit to
the US and you’ll find 9 times out of 10
that the address form doesn’t allow
enough space for the hotel name and
address. But if you provide the hotel
name the authorities will know exactly
where you are without the full address.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Our office address, for
example, lists us as being in Carlow. If
you actually looked at a map you’d see
that we aren’t in Carlow, but in Laois.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Michele</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">--</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Mr Michele Neylon</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Blacknight Solutions</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Hosting, Colocation &
Domains</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.blacknight.host/"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">http://www.blacknight.host/</span></a></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blacknight.blog/"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">http://blacknight.blog/</span></a></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ceo.hosting/"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">http://ceo.hosting/</span></a></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Intl. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%20%C2%A09183072"
value="+353599183072"
target="_blank">+353 (0) 59 9183072</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Direct Dial: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090"
value="+353599183090"
target="_blank">+353 (0)59 9183090</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">------------------------------<wbr>-</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Blacknight Internet
Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
Business Park,Sleaty</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93
X265,</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US">Ireland Company No.:
370845</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From:
</span>
</b><span
style="font-family:Calibri;color:black"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Richard Leaning <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rleaning@ripe.net"
target="_blank">rleaning@ripe.net</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday 7 October 2016 at
19:20<br>
<b>To: </b>Greg Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
For your review - updated RDS
Statement of Purpose</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thats Greg for
articulating it so well. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">all i was going to
say was - </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">'You can’t contact
someone if the contact information is
inaccurate’</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So i can’t see how
you can split the two.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richard Leaning</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">External
Relations</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">RIPE NCC</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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