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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to this discussion Stephanie.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephanie Perrin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 18, 2017 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Updated: Mp3, Attendance, AC Chat for Next-Gen RDS PDP WG on Wednesday, 18 January 2017 at 06:00 UTC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">I will do my best to make the call next week, but am travelling so may not manage it. Since I am the one querying the suggestion that protecting the data and the names of the individuals under
the rubric of privacy is a wee bit off base, believing instead that people should be accountable for what they are putting in their polling data, here is my view, for what it is worth.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">1. ICANN is fundamentally an open, transparent multistakeholder organization where pdps are open to all. There is an expectation that there will be robust debate and that people will be accountable
for the views they wish to express. IF a person wishes to watch what is happening and not participate, they can monitor and thereby not be forced to express a view. Participation in the working group should mean that one's expectations of privacy in terms
of opinions expressed is very limited. I would like to hear the arguments for such an opinion, if anyone has advanced them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">2. In this respect, if an organization sends a representative to attend a pdp and they do not have the authority to speak for the organization without vetting/checking, they have a number
of options: a) omit the survey b) fill it out in their own name with caveats that they do not represent the organization c) get the survey questions and consult on the answers. I don't really think it is acceptable for organizations to anonymously fill out
the survey, just as I don't buy the privacy argument from individuals.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">3. The data is useful to those of us who are trying to understand where people are coming from. As I have said numerous times, we all view these matters from our own perspectives and knowledge
base. I am trying to understand the degree to which people still do not understand privacy concepts, which I think I can detect from their answers. (others may wonder why I still don't understand how the RDS works, fair enough says I! CHeck my data, it
might help you detect necessary educational opportunities...) I am also interested in the variance across questions, cumulative totals per SG, etc etc).
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">4. At a rather fundamental level, data that is used by us even to form rough concepts of concensus should be accessible to all in my view. This is very controversial topic which has caused
considerable conflict over the years, let us try to minimize any potential for later questions or distrust by ensuring all data is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">There are ways around this problem of disclosure vs non-disclosure.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">1. Inform people that polling data will be available. Forwarned.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">2. RElease data minus the name. However, folks will be guessing who is from what constituency, and frankly we must have the constituency data. Normally for disclosure of PI for people in
groups we go by the rule of 4.....rarely are there 4 NCSG folks filling out the polls, so you can identify us anyway, this may be different for other groups. I think this one is a non-starter but there it is.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">3. Seek consent. As discussed above, I don't think the privacy arguments hold water; it is bad policy to seek consent on something that you could not /should not protect in the first place.
Also a non-starter in my view, but there it is.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Again, I hope to make the call next week but wanted to start off this discussion on the list in case I don't make it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Cheers STephanie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-01-18 10:45, Gomes, Chuck wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For those of you who were unable to attend this meeting, I encourage you to listen to the MP3 recording and/or review the transcript as well as the notes that Marika sent right
after the meeting. We made quite a lot of progress; we discussed all of the remaining proposed purposes for the collection of thin data and there were no objections from anyone on the call to the conclusion that each of the purposes are legitimate for the
collection of thin data.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The third purpose, where we started for this meeting, is Domain Name Certification. We spent quite a bit of time talking about this. For those who feel that you do not understand
this purpose fully, at about 14:50 into the call we had what I thought was a very good discussion designed to make sure everyone understands Domain Name Certification, so I encourage you to at least listen to that portion and the discussion following where
we discussed whether it was an acceptable purpose. You will note that some thick data elements were also mentioned but we did not make any conclusions regarding thick data.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Once we finished our deliberation on Domain Name Certification, there was just minimal discussion on the other remaining purposes so you may not find the balance of the recording
very informative.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Near the very end of the recording we alerted everyone to an agenda topic we will have next week about whether raw poll data should be shared with the WG and, if so, in what
way. Those not on the call may benefit from listening to that discussion in preparation for next week.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Happy listening.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathalie Peregrine<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org">gnso-secs@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Updated: Mp3, Attendance, AC Chat for Next-Gen RDS PDP WG on Wednesday, 18 January 2017 at 06:00 UTC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">With updated apologies</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">"<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-secs@icann.org">owner-gnso-secs@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-secs@icann.org">owner-gnso-secs@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Nathalie Peregrine
<<a href="mailto:nathalie.peregrine@icann.org">nathalie.peregrine@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 11:52 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org">gnso-secs@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org">gnso-secs@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[gnso-secs] Mp3, Attendance, AC Chat for Next-Gen RDS PDP WG on Wednesday, 18 January 2017 at 06:00 UTC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group
call held on Wednesday, 18 January 2017 at 06:00 UTC.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="line-height:15.6pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">MP3:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__audio.icann.org_gnso_gnso-2Dnextgen-2Drds-2Dpdp-2D18jan17-2Den.mp3&d=DwMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=KzV067Eeyuj3JRSZjh52PCELr7QkhUBq7VIagMYGQHQ&s=uyVJrYZT_qdZJbfPUPpqgfDfWFEr8V_cPaLxcsC8WHg&e=">https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-pdp-18jan17-en.mp3[audio.icann.org]</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DgMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=weT6ABypO2mbhE1dWs5uImJ38Mh2plfgTgH1L07rZf0&s=EHJpg8atZYvWGJ5XfS368jdC7F4jfuSw2xjKnh_5bn8&e="><span style="color:purple">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Mailing list archives:<a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/"><span style="color:purple">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Wiki page: </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_tarDAw&d=DgMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=F8D7r-W_wECDv1_jEDzbEWNFadeWG_alTD0XBlxPtBQ&s=RaRFcjj5cgZxXRr3idDQZOPXm8sHAdt_QG2T3G_mqU8&e="><span style="font-family:-webkit-standard">https://community.icann.org/x/tarDAw[community.icann.org]</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Kind regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Nathalie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">———————————————</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG Wednesday 18 January 2017</span></u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the Next-Gen RDS PDP WG call on Wednesday 18 January 2017 at 06:00 UTC.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Nathalie Peregrine:Meeting page: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_EbTDAw&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=9uxit6N-giqXHRfYH-5VIR7I-CJjYrAxWqkj2PJDjGc&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_EbTDAw&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=9uxit6N-giqXHRfYH-5VIR7I-CJjYrAxWqkj2PJDjGc&e=</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:good morning people</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:it's good middle of the bloody night :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Chuck Gomes:Morning?!!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:Good Afternoon ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:Hi all...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:Bonjour à tous / hello to everyone </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Good morning all.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:MUTE yourselves please</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Fabricio Vayra:good morning</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Tapani Tarvainen:Decent hour in Finland, too</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0):Morning All</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:6am is an hour</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Tapani Tarvainen:8am here</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:I'm not sure if it's decent or desiarable</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):not thaat horrible - 9am</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0):6 am here !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:Currently in Bangkok 1 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:so not to bad</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:1 am here. I am not at my perkiest I must admit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:So a silent Stephanie today? ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Not likely...just delayed, I suspect....:-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Marika Konings:no, I haven't seen anything</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:Stephanie is probably quiet because it is -5C outside and the weather is freezing rain (-: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:Actually, question 3 assessed level of support for several listed purposes, not just Domain Name Certification</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Yes Sam, if the power goes out again I may be extra quiet....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:1995 - earlier if you count the RSA days :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Fabricio Vayra:@Alex - Nice!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:Question: What percentage of DN Certificate Requests turn out to be bogus?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):current WHOIS data is not 100% true .. should we assume that not all 100% are good?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:I need some clarification about the first question as iam newcomer in this WG ,Thanks my second do you have some resources for no-English speaker ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:or .se / .nu where there are no info in whois for private persons</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:@Geoff, with respect to thin data elements, which elements are consulted for this authentication?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:My current bugbear is a particular company who insists on sending us their requests</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:not to our clients</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Daniel K. Nanghaka:The challenge with the WHOIS is that there is no appropriate verification method for the users - there should be a way to validate sensitive data </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:How often do you need to authenticate for these certificates?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:at least once per year</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Do you rely on what is in WHOIS, OR do you call the technical/administrative contact?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:per domain/ certificate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:what data do you trust? IN other words, how do you verify the data?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:domain validated certs are the cheapest ones</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:they're also the fastest ones to get issued</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:the level of "trust" is negligible</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:But what are they worth?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - to whom?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:To anyone who is relying on the certificate....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):hhmm .. and if the mailbox was compromised ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:FYI - they're also used by valid users like me :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:I'm using one on michele.blog</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:You could argue that Domain Validation certs are good for encryption only. they provide zero value from an authentication/identity point of view. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:I would have no clue what I am using. I think I speak for most consumers....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:what Alex said</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:they're a step up from a self-signed cert</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Thanks Alex, that is kind of where I was heading....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Daniel K. Nanghaka:This is where Domain verification comes in strongly - and the Domain validated certificates should be placed in the page of the Domain to prove that the domain
is validated. The Company should have a respective data handler who will be responsible for domain validation and certificate authentication. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Daniel - which company?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:Unsure how you will make that happen Daniel?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):The company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):in some movies it was the name for one of the agencies</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:@stephanie - it depends on the type of cert. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Daniel K. Nanghaka:@Michele - the company that that owns the Domain</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Daniel K. Nanghaka:Yes, the biggest challenge is that many companies take these certificates for granted</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Daniel - what makes you think they're a company? these days a LOT of the domain validated certs are for individiuals not companies</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__letsencrypt.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=gUMAlV9Le_Uk-WKSJISZI3A_tCUNIGZECo84Qr5k-w0&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__letsencrypt.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=gUMAlV9Le_Uk-WKSJISZI3A_tCUNIGZECo84Qr5k-w0&e=</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:see also <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__motherboard.vice.com_read_google-2Dwill-2Dsoon-2Dshame-2Dall-2Dwebsites-2Dthat-2Dare-2Dunencrypted-2Dchrome-2Dhttps&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=pFgFCnrUIsQEyD06VMwyJjHMCAjk5hpZrorKO9I0cCU&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__motherboard.vice.com_read_google-2Dwill-2Dsoon-2Dshame-2Dall-2Dwebsites-2Dthat-2Dare-2Dunencrypted-2Dchrome-2Dhttps&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=WjwIlN9HqKqst0hBUakd2-JJXpDPPFOkSb7qA5DRdFM&s=pFgFCnrUIsQEyD06VMwyJjHMCAjk5hpZrorKO9I0cCU&e=</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):letsencrypt ... they relay on publicsuffix, for exumple and the latter uses whois ...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):*example</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):the only other source of info ... is LEA </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:@maxim - you lost me. what info does LEA have?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Law Enforcement Agency</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:i know what lea stands for....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:I must be missing something here. If I am a legitimate rep of a company requesting a cert, why could you not ask for a whole mess of non-publically available
data, signed by the company, to validate my request?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):current internet users will surely suffer (and services too ) if certificates are no more</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - because it's time consuming and a pain in the neck?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:If you are looking for a phone number is that part of thin data? I did not think so. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:it doesn't scale</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Alex Deacon:@stephanie - a CA needs a way to "bind" (associate) an org/user with a domain. WHOIS does this today. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:phone numbers are "thick"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:That is what I thought. So we are talking about thick data here. And if only some registrants want certs, then why should all registrants have to put their
thick data in WHOIS?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:Note that handout is now displayed, showing this purpose and related thin data elements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:So what percentage of registrations want/need certs?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - see the link I posted above</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:Soon every active domains with a website</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:what Benny said :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:We are talking about a purpose for collection. I will certainly argue about disclosure. you are collecting for a valid purpose. We need to discuss how you
are going to use and disclose it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:@Maxim I need more information when you said the current internet user will sufer if we don't have more certifications </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:As far as I can see though, you are not collecting any separate data elements solely for the purpose of domain certs. validation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - in thin?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Abdeldjalil lots of services redend on certificates ... e-mail , online banking e.t.c.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:certainly in thin, but even in thick...what new data elements are you looking for?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - no new ones</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:Thanks @Maxim </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:After we get rough consensus on purposes for collecting thin data, we'll move to Data Elements and examine the individual data elements needed by that purpose, and
given that we can look at under what conditions that data should be disclosed for that purpose...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:I seem to be the only one quibbling here. I am not arguing about the importance of encryption, or certification of sites. I am quibbling about whether authenticators,
who arguably ought to be trusted parties, should be harvesting this data off an open WHOIS. If this is what they are doing as part of their functions, they could be autheticated to seek the data at a deeper level.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:@Sam, do study subjects not have any opportunity for anonymity, or does it depend on the study and the types of data involved?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:It depends on the university ethics protocols. Certainly in Canadian unis you would not be able to disclose the personal data, you would have to bind users
to the same privacy commitements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:ICANN would have to set a research protocol for this, that meets the highest standard, otherwise academic access could become one of those jurisdictional nightmares....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:@Rod, you propose adding Name Servers and Registrar to the list of thin data elements for this purpose?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Is it not the case that every time you need thick data, you absolutely have to have access to the thin data to get at it??</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:@Stephanie, yes, you need at least Domain Name to query any WHOIS data, but beyond that you may not need other thin data elements (dates, etc) for a given purpose</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie - yes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Thanks Michele</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:the thin tells you where to find the thick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:(sort of)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:(and I can't believe I just wrote that and it made sense to me)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:It is indeed a worrying sign...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:We have been at this a full year, I would point out....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Consumer protection is very limited. Yes it is a valid purpose. Disclosure is another matter...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:Q. Thin raw data from the polls, or Thick raw data from the polls? (-:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):just add checkbox - I do want my name shown</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Tapani Tarvainen:Analyzing pdf is not impossible, it's just a bit less convenient than xls</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:I think it would be interesting to see both. I want to look for contradictions in responses. I also want to look for aggregates.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):NamesCon?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Tapani Tarvainen:(having written a number of pdf-to-text thingies...)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Could we add example of report as a header to survey? like after you fill this - it is going to look like this and that?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:In short, we would need to get consent of all who responded</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):P.s: my IP address is useless ... giant NAT pool of the local ISP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie is that you??</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Tapani Tarvainen:+1 Stephanie. Don't really see any privacy issue here.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:has someone hijacked her identity??</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Michele Neylon:/me ducks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Lisa Phifer:@Maxim, generally not true of respondents taking survey from within corporate networks - in that case, IP is often static</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Stephanie Perrin:Sadly I may not be on the call next week, depending on travel schedule</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Lisa, agree - it depends</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Bye all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Benny / Nordreg AB:bye all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Daniel K. Nanghaka:bye</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:-webkit-standard"> Patrick Lenihan:Thanks to Each and All!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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