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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regarding our focus on collection and also on uses versus purposes, I would like to share some thoughts that I shared privately with a WG member a few days ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">When I say ‘collection of data’, I mean collection for use in the RDS regardless of how it might be displayed or accessed. In our leadership call yesterday, Michele pointed
out that thin data is generated, not collected. From the point of view of registries and registrars, I believe that is correct. But as others have pointed out, our task is not to decide what registries and registrars collect but rather what would be collected
for the RDS. Of course, if we develop policies that require that a thin data element is needed in the RDS, it would need to be collected from registries and/or registrars, and it would then follow that registries and/or registrars would have to generate it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">With that explanation of my use of the word ‘collect’, let me also make a few other points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">ˇ<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We initially narrowed our focus on ‘collection only’ to keep our focus on a more manageable scope; right or wrong, we decided that focusing on collection and display
and access all at once would make our task more difficult.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">ˇ<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">One problem with focusing on ‘collection only’ is that it causes us to reach conclusions that may later be changed and I am suspecting that that is part of the problem.
For example, when we conclude that we have reached rough consensus that research is a legitimate purpose for collecting thin data, that conclusion could later change when we talk about display of certain thin data elements or access to some thin data elements.
It might be better if we called our conclusions ‘interim conclusions’ because they may change after deeper deliberation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To take this one step further, in our further deliberations on data elements beyond collection we could find that there are no legitimate uses for particular data elements.
In such cases I think that we would then delete any interim purposes for which we reached rough consensus for collection of them. In other words, if there is no legitimate use for the data, whether public or gated access, it seems to me that there would be
no need to collect it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Does any of this make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Galvin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 24, 2017 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Aaron <gca@icginc.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I’m still struggling to understand your answer to my question, “How are the rights of legitimate users infringed by requiring them to authenticate in order to get access to data?”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Scott has reframed my question by observing that one consideration for this group is that there may be data that is available anonymously and data that requires authentication of the requestor. Either that consideration
implicitly infers that rights are not infringed or we still have a question to answer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Taking a step back, it’s probably too soon to focus too much on this issue. We’re really talking about data collection at this time so the parameters of display or access are relevant but don’t need to be solved
just yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I agree there are a number of interesting if not important use cases. The question I am pressing is why these use cases justify collection of the data? If we can’t clearly answer this question then I will continue
to object to collecting the data for the purpose being discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I’m wondering if you’re asserting that legacy uses establish legitimate usage and since that has been anonymous to date it is an infringement of a “right” to take that away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On 24 Jan 2017, at 14:05, Greg Aaron wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">I made a typo below. It should read: “For example law enforcement investigators do not want to reveal what they are looking into, for
obvious reasons. I also assume that they do not want to violate terms of service or lie about who they are or what they are doing.”</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">--Greg</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">
</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> [</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Aaron<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 24, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Galvin <</span><a href="mailto:jgalvin@afilias.info"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">jgalvin@afilias.info</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">>; RDS PDP WG
<</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">Dear Jim:</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">If legitimate users must identify themselves before looking up a domain name, and are required to state their purpose for making that query,
that is a significant collection of data with huge privacy and security implications. It means that registrars and registry operators would collect information about what specific people are searching for, and why. Users who have perfectly legitimate uses
are not currently required to give up their identities and use cases – can such a change be justified?</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">As a practical matter, a change would makes people jump through hoops unnecessarily. If we’re talking about thin data, that data is not
sensitive or personally identifiable. Thus there’s no reason for people who want to access it to declare their identities and use cases.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">Currently our RDS system (WHOIS) is a public query/response system. You’re pointing to turning RDS into a credential-driven system. That
poses enormous consequences for privacy, security, and cost. A lot of people commented about those things in response to the EWG. See SAC061 or example.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">There are use cases that argue in favor of anonymous access. For example law enforcement investigators do not want to reveal what they
are looking into, for obvious reasons. I also assume that they do they want to violate terms of service or lie about who they are or what they are doing.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">The setup we currently have -- a query/response system that does not require credentials or permissions -- avoids the above problems, among
others.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">All best,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">--Greg</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> James Galvin [</span><a href="mailto:jgalvin@afilias.info"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:jgalvin@afilias.info</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 24, 2017 12:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RDS PDP WG <</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Greg Aaron <</span><a href="mailto:gca@icginc.com"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gca@icginc.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">I have a comment and a question about Greg’s suggestion/conclusion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">First, while I appreciate the documented history and recollection of precedent, we are frequently reminded that we are starting with a clean slate. Thus the fact that “all use is allowed except when
a use is specifically prohibited” currently exists in contracts is not binding for us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Second, could you say more about how the rights of legitimate users are infringed by having to identify themselves before getting access to data? In my experience it is ordinary process to identify
yourself for access (and sometimes authenticate yourself) unless the circumstances are known to be anonymous or public. This group has to decide if the circumstances justify anonymous or public access, and what that means.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">On 23 Jan 2017, at 12:45, Greg Aaron wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">The question is not “Is ICANN a law enforcement body?’’ (Clearly it is not.) The question is whether ICANN can require that data be collected
and published in order to facilitate various legitimate goals. The answer to that question is clearly “yes.”</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">ICANN’s Bylaws describe ICANN’s responsibilities and their scope – especially see Article 1, section 1, of ICANN’s Bylaws, entitled “Mission, Commitments and Core Values.” (</span><a href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en/#article1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en/#article1</span></a><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> Among other things, “ICANN's scope is to coordinate the development and implementation of policies: For which uniform or coordinated resolution is reasonably necessary
to facilitate the openness, interoperability, resilience, security and/or stability of the DNS including, with respect to gTLD registrars and registries… functional and performance specifications for the provision of registrar services; registrar policies
reasonably necessary to implement Consensus Policies relating to a gTLD registry; resolution of disputes regarding the registration of domain names... Examples of the above include, without limitation: …</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333">maintenance
of and access to accurate and up-to-date information concerning registered names and name servers”.
</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333">Years back it was decided that the collection and publication of the data was important for accomplishing some legitimate goals, in keeping with the above principles. And since the
old days there have been additional statements of note. For example in 2007 the GAC weighed in recognizing a number of specific legitimate uses, including “facilitating inquiries and subsequent steps to conduct trademark clearances and help counter intellectual
property infringement” and “contributing to user confidence in the Internet”, in keeping with law. We’re reviewing all this now; just saying that there’s a lot of precedent, and proposals for chnage need to address precedent.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">Currently there is an approach that’s important to mention. The contracts say that registrars “shall permit
<i>use </i>of data it provides in response to queries <i>for any lawful purposes</i>”. [Emphases added; and except for “mass unsolicited, commercial messages” i.e. spamming, and some high-volume queries.) <i>Access
</i>is not prohibited or regulated. <i>All use is allowed</i> except when a use is specifically prohibited. </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">The alternative is to enumerate all allowable uses and to regulate access based on each user’s intent to honor those allowed uses. And that takes the world to a
place where a system must gatekeep all users, and parcel out data to them only after the assert or prove they have a legitimate use and that they will employ the data only for that purpose. IMHO that infringes upon the rights of legitimate users, and is
also a completely unmanageable solution.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">All best,</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:11.25pt;margin-left:0in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">--Greg</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">
</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"> [</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kimpian Peter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 23, 2017 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephanie Perrin <</span><a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777">>;
</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#777777"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Adding to the purpose debate: usually it is common sense and wiedly reckognised that we don't collect personal data just for the sake of it or in bulk saying it will be good for one purpose or another.
Usually data controllers have the obligation to say openly in advance this is why I am going to process (ie collect, agregate, transfer, etc.) personal data. Being said that it can not be excluded that those data will be used/accessed for "higher" common good
and for the benefit for all by another athorised data controller. For example a telco company can if all conditions met disclose (!) data it previously collected to law enforcement agencies but this does not mean that the Telco compony can collect, process
etc data for law enforcement purpose...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">My simple question to start with would be and always was: Is ICANN a law enforcement body? Does ICANN have any power/competence in fighting against crime? And it goes for other purposes as well:
Is ICANN an international trademark organisation? Etc...Is the answer given to those questions is shared by all the community of ICANN? In my sense we have to be sure that we answer first those questions before deciding on possible purposes (which does not
mean that discloser of data on a case-by case base according to international legal requirements will not be possible after this, but those will be exceptions !!!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">2017.01.22. 19:20 keltezéssel, Stephanie Perrin írta:</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif;color:#777777">I love your analogy Shane, it is perfect. In data protection terms that would be a use. For a legitimate purpose... sledding. There might have to be repercussions if you cracked
the lid....that might be a data breach:-)</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif;color:#777777">I hate being a nit picker and calling out this distinction between purpose of collection as opposed to purpose for use and disclosure, but it is extremely important in terms of
data protection. Some laws are more clear than others on the distinction, and you are correct that if we are not careful DP laws will forbid the collection and disclosure of the data. It is certainly clear that for collection of thin data, there is ample
justification for collecting the info based on ICANN's limited mandate. However adding law enforcement and other similar website related investigative activities to the list of legitimate purposes is in my view opening a barn door. After a year of discussion
we may understand the nuance, that we are talking about thin data, etc etc but when the fruits of our labours are published, it looks like we have all agreed that law enforcement (eg) is a legitimate purpose for collecting registration data. In my view, it
is not.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif;color:#777777">cheers Stephanie</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On 2017-01-22 04:03, Shane Kerr wrote:</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style="color:black">Greg,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">If we can say that not all legitimate purposes have to be catered for,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">then I agree with you. :)</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">If we say that tracking down the registrar of a domain as part of</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">trademark research is a legitimate purpose, that does not mean that we</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">have to design the system for this purpose, right?</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">To try an analogy: We can recognize that using the plastic top of a</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">garbage can as a sled is legitimate, but we don't insist on designing</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">lids with sledding in mind.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Full disclosure: My own take on the "legitimate purpose" discussion</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">with regards to "thin data" is that we need *some* purpose for both</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it. Luckily I</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">think that there are so many such purposes that the need for the</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">information is indisputable.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Jumping ahead... as I said in a prior call (sorry for missing ones since</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">then), I would prefer that the information is then allowed for any</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">purpose, without restriction, because otherwise you have to have not</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">only tiresome rules about what is allowed but also the Internet Police</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">to enforce those rules, which seems like a step towards Armageddon.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Given that we're still talking about "thin data", which is basically</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">just a pointer to a registrar who has *actual* data, my own</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">recommendation is not to stress too much. This stuff is only very, very</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">vaguely personally identifiable.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Cheers,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">--</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Shane </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">At 2017-01-21 14:51:29 -0500</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Greg Shatan </span><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a><span style="color:black"> wrote:</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style="color:black">I have to disagree. These are legitimate purposes for collection, as well</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">as for disclosure.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Greg</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Stephanie Perrin <</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a><span style="color:black">> wrote: </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style="color:black">I filled it out, but I am afraid for most of the purposes I could not</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">agree. We do not *collect *data for many of those purposes. We disclose</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">it to people for those purposes, but the purpose of collecting those data</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">elements is not for tax collection, trademark enforcement actions, etc.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">This is the conflation issue I have raised repeatedly.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Apologies if I did not make that point clear enough on the call.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Stephanie Perrin</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">On 2017-01-20 17:35, Gomes, Chuck wrote:</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Please note that our current poll ends in about 24 hours. So far only 16</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">people have responded.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Chuck</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">*From:* </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><span style="color:black"> [</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><span style="color:black">-</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:bounces@icann.org">bounces@icann.org</a><span style="color:black"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org></a><span style="color:black">] *On Behalf Of *Lisa</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Phifer</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">*Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 1:50 PM</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">*To:* RDS PDP WG </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><span style="color:black"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Purpose</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Dear all,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">As directed in the 18 January WG call, this week's new Poll on Purpose is</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">now open for WG member participation:</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SZX9QJZ">https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SZX9QJZ</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">A PDF of this poll's questions and notes/recordings of the meeting are</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">posted on the 18 January meeting page: </span><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/">https://community.icann.org/x/</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">EbTDAw</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">This poll will close at *COB Saturday 21 January 2017*.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">All WG members are encouraged to participate in this poll to help advance</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">deliberation and prepare for next week's meeting.</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Best regards,</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Lisa</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing </span><a href="mailto:listgnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">listgnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><span style="color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><br>
</span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3983C4">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</span></a><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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