<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485438738569_13773" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485438738569_13851">I like Volker's idea of an authorized middle man to facilitate access to data. Could we elaborate on this idea? It seems a good middle ground - enabling legitimate uses while limiting access at the same time. </span></div><div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485438738569_14018"> </div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485438738569_13694">Nathalie </div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:25 AM, gtheo <gtheo@xs4all.nl> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container">Agreed Volker, it only makes things more complex.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Theo<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Volker Greimann schreef op 2017-01-26 01:16 PM:<br clear="none">> Does all data need to be available to everyone though? Is it not<br clear="none">> sufficient that there be authorized anyones that can get the data and<br clear="none">> facilitate the use for those that need it? I have no contest on domain<br clear="none">> name and name servers being public, but do other parts of the thin<br clear="none">> data expiration/registration dates have to be to keep the internet<br clear="none">> functional?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> I do not dispute that there are purposes for legitimately accessing<br clear="none">> the data if it is there, but does it all have to be there?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Volker<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Am 26.01.2017 um 09:36 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">>> Stephanie<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Ok that’s simple.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> If you want a domain name to resolve on the internet you need<br clear="none">>> certain data elements to be available to everyone.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> That’s a technical reality.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Regards<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Michele<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> --<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Mr Michele Neylon<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Solutions<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.blacknight.host/" target="_blank">http://www.blacknight.host/</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank">http://blacknight.blog </a>/<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank">http://ceo.hosting/</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> -------------------------------<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business<br clear="none">>> Park,Sleaty<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> FROM: Stephanie Perrin <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>><br clear="none">>> DATE: Thursday 26 January 2017 at 04:26<br clear="none">>> TO: John Bambenek <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jcb@bambenekconsulting.com" href="mailto:jcb@bambenekconsulting.com">jcb@bambenekconsulting.com</a>>, Michele Neylon<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br clear="none">>> CC: Scott Hollenbeck <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com">shollenbeck@verisign.com</a>>, Sam Lanfranco<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net" href="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net">sam@lanfranco.net</a>>, "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>>,<br clear="none">>> "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br clear="none">>> SUBJECT: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> I am not sure how we get to this discussion. What I am saying, is<br clear="none">>> that the purpose of collecting data has to be linked to ICANN's core<br clear="none">>> mission. AS Peter said a while ago, is the core mission to enable<br clear="none">>> law enforcement investigations? No. It is a legitimate purpose to<br clear="none">>> use or disclose limited sets of data as required in accordance with<br clear="none">>> law, but it is not the reason we collect or generate thin data.<br clear="none">>> This distinction is important in data protection law. Nobody is<br clear="none">>> saying we should not disclose the thin data, including name servers.<br clear="none">>> What we are trying to say, and obviously with very little success,<br clear="none">>> is that several of the purposes for collecting thin data which were<br clear="none">>> in the last poll, were not related to ICANN's core mission. They<br clear="none">>> might be legitimate disclosures of data, but they are not legitimate<br clear="none">>> purposes to collect.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Displaying data in WHOIS is a disclosure. We are not supposed to be<br clear="none">>> talking about that yet. We keep conflating the legitimacy of<br clear="none">>> collection, and why we gather or generate data elements about a<br clear="none">>> domain name, and disclosure.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Sorry to keep hammering on this, but it is a very simple concept<br clear="none">>> that is fundamental to data protection. No wonder we have been<br clear="none">>> arguing about this for 18 years.....<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> cheers Stephanie<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> On 2017-01-25 21:06, John Bambenek wrote:<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Regardless of the privacy implications, if someone who wants to look<br clear="none">>> up a hostname and can't find can't figure out what the authoritative<br clear="none">>> nameservers are for the domain, DNS quite simply will not work and<br clear="none">>> with it the internet is down; go home.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Unless someone is suggesting we completely re-architect DNS, having<br clear="none">>> nameservers tied to domain records is absolutely essential.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> You could deprecate displaying it in whois but any DNS client would<br clear="none">>> easily be able to retrieve the data because the resolver still has<br clear="none">>> to know what to ask for.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> J<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 16:08, Michele Neylon - Blacknight<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Stephanie<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Do you have any links to any legislation / regulations etc., that<br clear="none">>> are this broad?<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> And honestly I don’t see how a set of nameserver is “personally<br clear="none">>> identifiable” unless you’re using your own name in the hostname<br clear="none">>> (which you could, but then I’d see that as your choice and not a<br clear="none">>> technical requirement)<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Regards<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Michele<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> --<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Mr Michele Neylon<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Solutions<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.blacknight.host/" target="_blank">http://www.blacknight.host/ </a>[1]<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank">http://blacknight.blog/ </a>[2]<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank">http://ceo.hosting/ </a>[3]<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> -------------------------------<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business<br clear="none">>> Park,Sleaty<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Ireland Company No.: 370845<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> FROM: Stephanie Perrin <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>><br clear="none">>> DATE: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 19:40<br clear="none">>> TO: Michele Neylon <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>>, Scott Hollenbeck<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com">shollenbeck@verisign.com</a>>, Sam Lanfranco <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net" href="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net">sam@lanfranco.net</a>>,<br clear="none">>> "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>><br clear="none">>> CC: "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br clear="none">>> SUBJECT: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Unfortunately, in a world where the Internet of things is taking<br clear="none">>> off, privacy advocates and authorities have to insist that data<br clear="none">>> generated by or as a result of the actions of an individual or his<br clear="none">>> devices(eg metadata, timestamping, etc) has to be considered as<br clear="none">>> personal information. If it is used to describe processes<br clear="none">>> pertaining to that information, if it could be used to incriminate<br clear="none">>> that individual, it is important that it be recognized as<br clear="none">>> information for which individuals have rights. Otherwise, we have a<br clear="none">>> situation where the individual has no right to access information<br clear="none">>> that may impact him, may incriminate him, but to which he may be<br clear="none">>> utterly oblivious. Sorry it is such a pain in the neck, but there<br clear="none">>> we are.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Stephanie<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> On 2017-01-25 12:32, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Scott<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Sure, but if we go down that route we could make cases for a lot of<br clear="none">>> things J<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> My main problem with this entire debacle is that the data we’re<br clear="none">>> dealing with is pretty much useless and isn’t personally<br clear="none">>> identifiable.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Regards<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Michele<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> --<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Mr Michele Neylon<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Solutions<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="https://www.blacknight.com/" target="_blank">https://www.blacknight.com/</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="http://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank">http://blacknight.blog/</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Social: <a shape="rect" href="http://mneylon.social/" target="_blank">http://mneylon.social</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Some thoughts: <a shape="rect" href="http://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank">http://ceo.hosting/</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> -------------------------------<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business<br clear="none">>> Park,Sleaty<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> FROM: Scott Hollenbeck <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com">shollenbeck@verisign.com</a>><br clear="none">>> DATE: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 17:15<br clear="none">>> TO: Michele Neylon <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>>, Stephanie Perrin<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>>, Sam Lanfranco<br clear="none">>> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net" href="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net">sam@lanfranco.net</a>>, "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@davecake.net" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>><br clear="none">>> CC: "<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br clear="none">>> SUBJECT: RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> FROM: <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><br clear="none">>> [mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] ON BEHALF OF Michele<br clear="none">>> Neylon - Blacknight<br clear="none">>> SENT: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 12:09 PM<br clear="none">>> TO: Stephanie Perrin; Sam Lanfranco; David Cake<br clear="none">>> CC: <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br clear="none">>> SUBJECT: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll<br clear="none">>> on Purpose<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Stephanie<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Sorry, but policy + the technology go hand in hand. You cannot<br clear="none">>> completely separate them and any policy that this (or any other)<br clear="none">>> group produces needs to be technically possible to implement.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> As to the specifics ..<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> I would argue that generated data is NOT collected, as it’s<br clear="none">>> generated.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> If you register stephanieperrin.com [4] with us the only elements we<br clear="none">>> are “collecting” that end up in in the “thin” data are:<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> the domain name string<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> the nameservers you’re using (and if you don’t specify any<br clear="none">>> we’ll use our own)<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> All the other elements are NOT collected by the registrar or even<br clear="none">>> the registry from the registrant, they are generated as part of the<br clear="none">>> process of the domain being registered.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> [SAH] Michele, some might argue that the registration period is also<br clear="none">>> collected from the registrant and is then used to generate the<br clear="none">>> expiration date at the registry. A case might also be made for<br clear="none">>> status values like clientTransferProhibited etc. I agree completely<br clear="none">>> that generated data is just that – generated.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Scott<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> --<br clear="none">> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Volker A. 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