<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136841">When I said 'Internet activities', I meant legal Internet activities. There is no real difference between both visions in practice, only in theory. Because in practice, as shown by ccTLDs operators up to now, the way data protection is applied enables the flow of WHOIS data for all legal purposes we have defined up to now. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136842"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136843"></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136842">I was also not advocating the full disclosure of all and any information randomely. This was just an attempt to focuse on what it meant to allow enough data to flow past the data subject for the benefit of third parties who need this information for their protection. This new law can be interpreted in one hundred ways, and I don't think we can decide which way is right or wrong. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136844"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136844">I'm not sure we can settle this dispute through this debate within our WG, and we should definitely not innovate. We should follow what is being done by ccTLD operators, phonebook companies to see what is acceptable and what is not. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136845">If people believe this new law is not correctly applied, they should start by filing complaints with ccTLD operators and phonebook providers. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136846"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136847"></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136848">Nathalie</div><div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136827"> </div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_136829"><br></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Friday, February 10, 2017 12:35 PM, "sam@lanfranco.net" <sam@lanfranco.net> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv5787633040"><div>This difference of opinion is the crucial fork in the road here. Name one other sector, industry, or activity where "fat" disclosure takes place, or where "thin" disclosure harmed development. Anything other than a minimalist "thin" will be a source of endless pain, and for no gain.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sam L.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from my Huawei Mobile<div class="yiv5787633040quote" style="line-height:1.5;"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-------- Original Message --------<br clear="none">Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois<br clear="none">From: Volker Greimann <br clear="none">To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<br clear="none">CC: <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv5787633040quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"></blockquote><div class="yiv5787633040yqt4324108830" id="yiv5787633040yqt19672"><div>
<div>This illustrates the basic difference of opinion:</div>
<div>Proposal: By not allowing the flow of WHOIS data for anything but
purposes backed by legal rights to that information or required
for the technical operation of the internet</div>
<div>1) We will strengthen the rights to private data against anyone
desiring to abuse that data by claiming to have some ephemeral
purpose to access that data</div>
<div>2) The internet economy will likely not be affected</div>
<div>3) By defining restrictive access requirements, we will still
enable legitimate cases where access to such data is needed <br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Volker<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv5787633040moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.02.2017 um 17:11 schrieb nathalie
coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46959">Proposal: By
allowing the flow of WHOIS data to enable as many legitimate
activites as possible througout the root and main branches of
the tree: </div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46959">1) we
will strengthen the Internet by providing peripheral purposes
that protect the medium (consumer protection, research,...)</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46959">2) we
will protect the Internet economy as much as possible</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46959">3) by
increasing granularity, we can tackle edge cases at the edge.
</div>
<div id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46956"> </div>
<div class="yiv5787633040signature" id="yiv5787633040yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486739741688_46957">Nathalie </div>
<div class="yiv5787633040qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="yiv5787633040yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> On Friday,
February 10, 2017 11:01 AM, Victoria Sheckler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com"><vsheckler@riaa.com></a> wrote:<br clear="none">
</font></div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv5787633040y_msg_container">We need to find balance and a
constructive way to propose solutions, not this endless
back and forth of edge cases.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:benny@nordreg.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:benny@nordreg.se">benny@nordreg.se</a><br clear="none">
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 4:44 AM<br clear="none">
To: Volker Greimann <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br clear="none">
Cc: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
+1 to Volker<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Spot on, we cant let the criminals endanger all
innocents life by default expose data as we do today<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
--<br clear="none">
Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig
hilsen<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Benny Samuelsen<br clear="none">
Registry Manager - Domainexpert<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar<br clear="none">
IANA-ID: 638<br clear="none">
Phone: +46.42197080<br clear="none">
Direct: +47.32260201<br clear="none">
Mobile: +47.40410200<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:41, Volker Greimann <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> Pivoting off domain whois is my #1 valued
resource in cybercrime investigations.<br clear="none">
> Judging from the amount of abuse and spam out
there, it is also the #1 valued resource of spammers,
cyber criminals, nigerian princes, domain slammers ,etc
etc.<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> And that leads to the question: Is it really worth
giving up the private data of all registrants to whoever
wants it just to catch a few bad guys?<br clear="none">
> And to answer that: I'd rather see a few criminals
uncaught if that means the innocent majority will be
that much less at risk to be victimized.<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Best,<br clear="none">
> Volker<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 12:16 PM, <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:benny@nordreg.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:benny@nordreg.se">benny@nordreg.se</a>
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:benny@nordreg.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:benny@nordreg.se">benny@nordreg.se</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
>> Dnsservers, domainstatus, various dates,
Registrar<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> None of these data are personal data imo<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> The only info you see in Whois are the contact
ID the user have at <br clear="none">
>> the registrar/ registry<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:10, nathalie coupet <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com">nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>>> Benny,<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> All personal info on personal domains are
hidden by default. What are the info that remain
available for public view - after personal information
have been hidden by default - which still enable
technical operability? <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Nathalie<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> On Thursday, February 9, 2017 11:46 AM, "<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:benny@nordreg.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:benny@nordreg.se">benny@nordreg.se</a>"
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:benny@nordreg.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:benny@nordreg.se">benny@nordreg.se</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Maybe not but there are nothing who prevent
us from trying to protect people from there mistakes and
stupidity and still be able to have certain level of
technical operability with whois data.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> A good example are .se which have a whois
policy where all personal info on personal domains are
hidden by default. The registrant need to opt out of the
privacy actively by making a decision. That might be the
way we should think instead of what to do to hide data.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> --<br clear="none">
>>> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med
vennlig hilsen<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Benny Samuelsen<br clear="none">
>>> Registry Manager - Domainexpert<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar<br clear="none">
>>> IANA-ID: 638<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Phone: +46.42197080<br clear="none">
>>> Direct: +47.32260201<br clear="none">
>>> Mobile: +47.40410200<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> On 09/02/2017, 17:38, "<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
on behalf of Greg Aaron" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
on behalf of <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gca@icginc.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:gca@icginc.com">gca@icginc.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Is ICANN (or anyone else) responsible
for protecting Spicer from himself? A lot of the
articles about this subject point out that Spicer was
neglectful and occasionally incompetent.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Here are some facts to consider:<br clear="none">
>>> * Privacy protection was available and
Spicer didn’t obtain it. That was his choice. <br clear="none">
>>> * Spicer agreed to have his data
published in WHOIS. So that was either OK with him, or
he didn't read the terms of service in his domain
registration agreement. Either way, it was his choice.
<br clear="none">
>>> * Spicer tweeted out his own Twitter
password. He's responsible for that. <br clear="none">
>>> * Spicer himself published his email
address in many, many public places over the years. A
simple Google search will tell you what his email
address was. <br clear="none">
>>> * Those data breaches that Volker
mentions have nothing to do with domain registration
data. They did not reveal domain registration data.
Domain registration data didn't allow hackers to
penetrate Dropbox, LinkedIn, and MySpace, and the other
places where Spicer's credentials were lost over the
years. Bad corporate security allowed those breaches to
happen. <br clear="none">
>>> * Spicer has a very different risk
profile than the average person. He's been a prominent
PR and political operative for many years (and is now
working for the most scrutinized entity in the world).
A key tenet of risk assessment is that exceptional cases
may not justify making rules that affect everyone. <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> All best,<br clear="none">
>>> --Greg<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> -----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
>>> From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Volker Greimann<br clear="none">
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 4:28 AM<br clear="none">
>>> To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br clear="none">
>>> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of
public whois<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> As we tend to get lost in the thick and
nitty gritty from time to time, this recent article
should remind us what we are working for:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>>
mashable.com/2017/02/07/sean-spicer-who-is<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> also here: <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/08/sean-spicer-brings-attention-wh">http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/08/sean-spicer-brings-attention-wh</a><br clear="none">
>>> ois-privacy/<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> While it could not have hit a nicer guy,
he completely and accurately followed policy and look
where it lead. Hi private address and telephone number
as well as email address known to the world, other
domains he registered for himself and his family
published, etc. As his email address was compromised in
no less than three leaks (plus one honorable mention on
Wikileaks), and he recently tweeted his password, it may
even be possible to dig deeper.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> I hope this helps remind folks that
getting private data out of the public view is a good
thing.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> --<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen
gerne zur Verfügung.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Volker A. Greimann<br clear="none">
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Key-Systems GmbH<br clear="none">
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>>> Im Oberen Werk 1<br clear="none">
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert<br clear="none">
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> - legal department -<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Key-Systems GmbH<br clear="none">
> Im Oberen Werk 1<br clear="none">
> 66386 St. Ingbert<br clear="none">
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<pre>_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
<pre class="yiv5787633040moz-signature">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.key-systems.net/">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.rrpproxy.net/">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.brandshelter.com/">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.keydrive.lu/">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.key-systems.net/">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.rrpproxy.net/">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv5787633040moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.keydrive.lu/">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
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