<div dir="ltr">Would any other registrar have responded to my address change with a "no, that is not your correct address"?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Gomes, Chuck <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cgomes@verisign.com" target="_blank">cgomes@verisign.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="m_4890057205338447618WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Allison,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I think it would be helpful if you didn’t lump all registrars into the same bucket just because you have had some bad experiences. That would make it easier for all of us
to work collaboratively to find solutions going forward.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_4890057205338447618__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>allison nixon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>><span style="font-size:9.5pt">That would be providing incorrect whois data and can trigger an investigation by ICANN and the registrar, if noticed. Not a good idea. Let's not make the option to violate registration policy an argument
against protection of private data.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Really? because I saw firsthand exactly how serious such an investigation is and it's a joke. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">>>I am sorry you had that experience. Normally, if evidence is provided by the complainant that the whois is incorrect, most registrars will require that the registrant provides evidence that the updated data
is correct, if only to avoid a follow-on complaint. If evidence suggests that the address is obviously and intentionally fake and the domain likely used in abuse, we may not even wait for the feedback of the customer before deactivating.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">While my domain was not involved in abuse, making a single address change, and saying "I assure you, this is where people should send mail" is more than enough to satisfy my registrar. Nothing stops someone
from making a second complaint against a domain, especially if the goal is for takedown or harassment (which it almost always would be). And that second complaint would be as equally valid as the first one, and equally valid as my subsequent response. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Cue yakety sax.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">The emperor wears no clothes.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">>>Ah, you misunderstood me. I meant that when I, a customer, get ripped off by an Amazon marketplace seller, Amazon will in all likelyhood not provide me with all data they have on the culprit. Even the police
may need a subpoena. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">And the registrar doesn't publish payment info when the customer pays with a fake credit card. the comparison to WHOIS is nonsensical. WHOIS is not involved in private commercial transactions.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">>>There has to be some form of due process, anything else is anarchy. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">The Internet is in a state of anarchy.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">>>Verification may be impossible. Validation on the other hand is possible. If you do not like the policy as it stands, propose an alternative solution. Ideally also tell us who will pay for it.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">I do not actually think that physical addresses and phone numbers should be verified. I am saying that this dance around the issue of correct WHOIS data is a hilarious joke. You seem to have legal obligations
to pretend otherwise, as a registrar, but I don't and I'm pointing out the nakedness of this particular emperor. There is absolutely no compulsion to provide correct info. I challenge you to prove me wrong.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Hi Greg,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>that is a totally different issue. Maybe such services need better regulation, but as long as the policy requirements are met, taking action solely based on the use of such services is impossible.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Volker<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 14.02.2017 um 20:19 schrieb Greg Aaron:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_4890057205338447618_m_-3156251146789030328__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">No, the RAA validation steps are trivially easy to get around.
You use the example of a fake email address. Criminals know not to use fake email addresses, and they don’t need to because they can get email addresses for free. One can sign up for free email accounts anonymously. There are even underground services that
will generate freemail accounts in bulk. These services cater to criminals such as spammers who need to register lots of domain names.
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">--Greg</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Hollenbeck, Scott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>'
<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><elsakoo@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> '<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>'
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> allison nixon [</span><a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hollenbeck, Scott <</span><a href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">shollenbeck@verisign.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">vgreimann@key-systems.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">;
</span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>>[SAH] Actually, there *are* requirements to provide valid data and for registrars to perform validation processing:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">How do you expect toothless policy to work *on the Internet*? Seriously?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes, seriously. Registrars who do not implement the policy are subject to having their accreditation revoked. ICANN
has, in fact, revoked or suspended accreditations. Here are two examples:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2007-03-16-en" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/news/<wbr>announcement-2-2007-03-16-en</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/en/<wbr>system/files/correspondence/<wbr>serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.<wbr>pdf</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">worst that can happen when you put in fake whois data is that your domain gets reported, you change "123 fake st" to "124 fake st", and your registrar is satisfied because what
more can they possibly do. I know this because I went through this with an old sinkhole domain. It's a total joke. Let's not pretend it's anything more than that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Not true. A fake email address, for example, can be detected easily when email sent to it (one of the registrar’s validation
requirements) gets bounced back. The worst that can happen is that your domain gets put into some non-operational state (“suspend the registration” per the RAA).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Scott</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>- Rechtsabteilung -<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
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<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
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<pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>- legal department -<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
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