<html><body><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>HI Allison,<br></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>I have kept quiet for most of the debate back and forward and have not put my&nbsp; head above the parapet for the odd comment made through fear of the "oh another registrar - comment".&nbsp; However, if you have had a bad experience with a registrar, you report it to ICANN, please do not hang around, we like you want the bad actors to change their direction and be good and worthwhile registrars - whois inaccuracy reports come from ICANN and I have my fair share of them.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>I certainly do not risk my ICANN creds over someone’s whois - if there is a report, and the address looks bogus (and even if not as we have to provide ICANN some proof and "google maps" doesn’t cut it) we require ID, generally government based proving the address that has been updated is correct.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>Now, that does not prove verification, that proves validation, I am sure as you I believe suggested you could put down anyone’s address and it would be valid, however, verifying it is completely different, and costly, I believe Volker mentioned it before, if a solution can be found and it is commercially viable - confirm who is paying for it, as it is unfair to burden the registrant with extra cost, similar to the registrar, nor the registry.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br></div><div>I cited once before, I know my neighbours name, his address (should do, he is my neighbour after all), his age, and because of cake last year, his birthday -&nbsp; lastly I know his height and can have a stab at his mothers maiden name (he mentioned it once before in passing conversation as it was similar to my mothers), thus quite a bit of information not really out in the public.&nbsp; You are probably now thinking where am I going with this.&nbsp; Verification can ONLY be done with the tools the governments of our world have, they know your passport number, driving license number, marriage date and other such dates.&nbsp; Only the governments can provide a way of verification that is as close as damn it to being the person you are dealing with.<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>One final point to your comment "<strong><strong></strong></strong><span style="font-size: 12.8px;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12.8px;">Really? Because a lot of domains have WHOIS privacy enabled, which is as good as a fake address.</span><strong></strong>"&nbsp;&nbsp; We pay plenty for our office address per year, this is our privacy/proxy service address, so please don't tar all services with the same brush, some are great, some do as they need and some don't.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div data-marker="__SIG_PRE__">Kind regards,<br><br>Chris</div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><b>From: </b>"allison nixon" &lt;elsakoo@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"Volker Greimann" &lt;vgreimann@key-systems.net&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" &lt;gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org&gt;<br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, 15 February, 2017 16:31:40<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois<br></div><div><br></div><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div dir="ltr">&gt;&gt;<span style="font-size:12.8px">Yet we hear claims on this list again and again that it is used by internet users all the time to verify whether the site they want to conduct commercial transactions on is legit.</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Really? Because a lot of domains have WHOIS privacy enabled, which is as good as a fake address.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">If provided with actual evidence of wilful use of incorrect data and the data either remains uncorrected or no evidence of acuracy of the correction is presented, then you will find that many registrars will deactivate the domain. For many, the threat of suspension of their domain is compulsion enough.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">And if the registrant doesn't flagrantly admit to doing so, and they use an address of the nearest football stadium or enemy's house, the song and dance continues. Or they use existing whois privacy, input 123 fake st, and the complainant&nbsp;has no standing to make additional complaints</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">You seem to be saying: Let's abolish whois altogether since it is all fake info anyway...?</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Not really, just pointing out the ridiculousness of the assumptions being made here.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

  <div>

    <p>You seem to be saying: Let's abolish whois altogether since it is

      all fake info anyway...?<br>

    </p><div><div class="h5">

    <br>

    <div class="m_-7850367133527824654moz-cite-prefix">Am 15.02.2017 um 16:29 schrieb allison

      nixon:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote>

      <div dir="ltr"><br>

        <div><br>

        </div>

        <div>&gt;&gt;<span style="font-size:12.8px">That would be

            providing incorrect whois data and can trigger an

            investigation by ICANN and the registrar, if noticed. Not a

            good idea. Let's not make the option to violate registration

            policy an argument against protection of private data.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Really? because I saw

            firsthand exactly how serious such an investigation is and

            it's a joke.&nbsp;</span></div>

        <div><br>

        </div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">I am sorry you had that experience.

            Normally, if evidence is provided by the complainant that

            the whois is incorrect, most registrars will require that

            the registrant provides evidence that the updated data is

            correct, if only to avoid a follow-on complaint. If evidence

            suggests that the address is obviously and intentionally

            fake and the domain likely used in abuse, we may not even

            wait for the feedback of the customer before deactivating.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">While my domain was not

            involved in abuse, making a single address change, and

            saying "I assure you, this is where people should send mail"

            is more than enough to satisfy my registrar. Nothing stops

            someone from making a second complaint against a domain,

            especially if the goal is for takedown or harassment (which

            it almost always would be). And that second complaint would

            be as equally valid as the first one, and equally valid as

            my subsequent response.&nbsp;</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Cue yakety sax.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The emperor wears no

            clothes.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Ah, you misunderstood me. I meant

            that when I, a customer, get ripped off by an Amazon

            marketplace seller, Amazon will in all likelyhood not

            provide me with all data they have on the culprit. Even the

            police may need a subpoena.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">&nbsp;</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">And the registrar doesn't

            publish payment info when the customer pays with a fake

            credit card. the comparison to WHOIS is nonsensical. WHOIS

            is not involved in private commercial transactions.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">There has to be some form of due

            process, anything else is anarchy.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">&nbsp;</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The Internet is in a state

            of anarchy.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Verification may be impossible.

            Validation on the other hand is possible. If you do not like

            the policy as it stands, propose an alternative solution.

            Ideally also tell us who will pay for it.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I do not actually think that

            physical addresses and phone numbers should be verified. I

            am saying that this dance around the issue of correct WHOIS

            data is a hilarious joke. You seem to have legal obligations

            to pretend otherwise, as a registrar, but I don't and I'm

            pointing out the nakedness of this particular emperor. There

            is absolutely no compulsion to provide correct info. I

            challenge you to prove me wrong.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

      </div>

      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Volker

          Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span>

          wrote:<br>

          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

            <div>

              <p>Hi Greg,</p>

              <p>that is a totally different issue. Maybe such services

                need better regulation, but as long as the policy

                requirements are met, taking action solely based on the

                use of such services is impossible.</p>

              <p>Volker</p>

              <span>

                <p><br>

                </p>

                <br>

                <div class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-cite-prefix">Am

                  14.02.2017 um 20:19 schrieb Greg Aaron:<br>

                </div>

              </span>

              <blockquote>

                <div class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328WordSection1"><span>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-7850367133527824654_m_-3156251146789030328__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">No,

                          the RAA validation steps are trivially easy to

                          get around.&nbsp; You use the example of a fake

                          email address.&nbsp; Criminals know not to use fake

                          email addresses, and they don’t need to

                          because they can get email addresses for

                          free.&nbsp; One can sign up for free email accounts

                          anonymously.&nbsp; There are even underground

                          services that will generate freemail accounts

                          in bulk.&nbsp; These services cater to criminals

                          such as spammers who need to register lots of

                          domain names. </span></a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">All

                          best,</span></span></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">--Greg</span></span></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span></p>

                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span></p>

                    <span></span> </span>

                  <div>

                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">

                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> <a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>

                          [<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]

                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Hollenbeck, Scott<span><br>

                            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:57

                            PM<br>

                            <b>To:</b> '<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>' <a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">&lt;elsakoo@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>

                            <b>Cc:</b> '<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>'

                            <a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">&lt;gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org&gt;</a><br>

                          </span><b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]

                          Dangers of public whois</span></p>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                  <span>

                    <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

                    <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">

                      <div>

                        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">

                              allison nixon [</span><a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">] <br>

                              <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017

                              1:35 PM<br>

                              <b>To:</b> Hollenbeck, Scott &lt;</span><a href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">shollenbeck@verisign.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;<br>

                              <b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">vgreimann@key-systems.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">; </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>

                              <b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re:

                              [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois</span></p>

                        </div>

                      </div>

                      <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

                      <div>

                        <p class="MsoNormal">&gt;&gt;[SAH] Actually,

                          there *are* requirements to provide valid data

                          and for registrars to perform validation

                          processing:</p>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

                        </div>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal">How do you expect

                            toothless policy to work *on the Internet*?

                            Seriously?</p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span></i></b></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes,

                              seriously. Registrars who do not implement

                              the policy are subject to having their

                              accreditation revoked. ICANN has, in fact,

                              revoked or suspended accreditations. Here

                              are two examples:</span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2007-03-16-en" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2007-03-16-en</span></a><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf</span></a><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>

                        </div>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

                        </div>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal">worst that can happen

                            when you put in fake whois data is that your

                            domain gets reported, you change "123 fake

                            st" to "124 fake st", and your registrar is

                            satisfied because what more can they

                            possibly do. I know this because I went

                            through this with an old sinkhole domain.

                            It's a total joke. Let's not pretend it's

                            anything more than that.</p>

                        </div>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

                        </div>

                      </div>

                      <div>

                        <div>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Not

                              true. A fake email address, for example,

                              can be detected easily when email sent to

                              it (one of the registrar’s validation

                              requirements) gets bounced back. The worst

                              that can happen is that your domain gets

                              put into some non-operational state

                              (“suspend the registration” per the RAA).</span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span></p>

                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Scott</span></p>

                        </div>

                      </div>

                    </div>

                  </span></div>

                <br>

                <fieldset class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>

                <br>

                <span>

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    <pre class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-signature">-- 

Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

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--------------------------------------------

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Best regards,

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- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

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<div>

</div>-- 

<div class="m_-7850367133527824654gmail_signature">_________________________________

Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<pre class="m_-7850367133527824654moz-signature">-- 