<div dir="ltr">>><span style="font-size:12.8px">Yet we hear claims on this list again and again that it is used by internet users all the time to verify whether the site they want to conduct commercial transactions on is legit.</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Really? Because a lot of domains have WHOIS privacy enabled, which is as good as a fake address.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">If provided with actual evidence of wilful use of incorrect data and the data either remains uncorrected or no evidence of acuracy of the correction is presented, then you will find that many registrars will deactivate the domain. For many, the threat of suspension of their domain is compulsion enough.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">And if the registrant doesn't flagrantly admit to doing so, and they use an address of the nearest football stadium or enemy's house, the song and dance continues. Or they use existing whois privacy, input 123 fake st, and the complainant has no standing to make additional complaints</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">You seem to be saying: Let's abolish whois altogether since it is all fake info anyway...?</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Not really, just pointing out the ridiculousness of the assumptions being made here.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>You seem to be saying: Let's abolish whois altogether since it is
all fake info anyway...?<br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<div class="m_-7850367133527824654moz-cite-prefix">Am 15.02.2017 um 16:29 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>>><span style="font-size:12.8px">That would be
providing incorrect whois data and can trigger an
investigation by ICANN and the registrar, if noticed. Not a
good idea. Let's not make the option to violate registration
policy an argument against protection of private data.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Really? because I saw
firsthand exactly how serious such an investigation is and
it's a joke. </span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">I am sorry you had that experience.
Normally, if evidence is provided by the complainant that
the whois is incorrect, most registrars will require that
the registrant provides evidence that the updated data is
correct, if only to avoid a follow-on complaint. If evidence
suggests that the address is obviously and intentionally
fake and the domain likely used in abuse, we may not even
wait for the feedback of the customer before deactivating.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">While my domain was not
involved in abuse, making a single address change, and
saying "I assure you, this is where people should send mail"
is more than enough to satisfy my registrar. Nothing stops
someone from making a second complaint against a domain,
especially if the goal is for takedown or harassment (which
it almost always would be). And that second complaint would
be as equally valid as the first one, and equally valid as
my subsequent response. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Cue yakety sax.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The emperor wears no
clothes.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Ah, you misunderstood me. I meant
that when I, a customer, get ripped off by an Amazon
marketplace seller, Amazon will in all likelyhood not
provide me with all data they have on the culprit. Even the
police may need a subpoena.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">And the registrar doesn't
publish payment info when the customer pays with a fake
credit card. the comparison to WHOIS is nonsensical. WHOIS
is not involved in private commercial transactions.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">There has to be some form of due
process, anything else is anarchy.</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The Internet is in a state
of anarchy.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">>></span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Verification may be impossible.
Validation on the other hand is possible. If you do not like
the policy as it stands, propose an alternative solution.
Ideally also tell us who will pay for it.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I do not actually think that
physical addresses and phone numbers should be verified. I
am saying that this dance around the issue of correct WHOIS
data is a hilarious joke. You seem to have legal obligations
to pretend otherwise, as a registrar, but I don't and I'm
pointing out the nakedness of this particular emperor. There
is absolutely no compulsion to provide correct info. I
challenge you to prove me wrong.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Volker
Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>that is a totally different issue. Maybe such services
need better regulation, but as long as the policy
requirements are met, taking action solely based on the
use of such services is impossible.</p>
<p>Volker</p>
<span>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-cite-prefix">Am
14.02.2017 um 20:19 schrieb Greg Aaron:<br>
</div>
</span>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328WordSection1"><span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-7850367133527824654_m_-3156251146789030328__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">No,
the RAA validation steps are trivially easy to
get around. You use the example of a fake
email address. Criminals know not to use fake
email addresses, and they don’t need to
because they can get email addresses for
free. One can sign up for free email accounts
anonymously. There are even underground
services that will generate freemail accounts
in bulk. These services cater to criminals
such as spammers who need to register lots of
domain names. </span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All
best,</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">--Greg</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<span></span> </span>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Hollenbeck, Scott<span><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:57
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>' <a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><elsakoo@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> '<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>'
<a class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Dangers of public whois</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
allison nixon [</span><a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017
1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hollenbeck, Scott <</span><a href="mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">shollenbeck@verisign.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">vgreimann@key-systems.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">; </span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>>[SAH] Actually,
there *are* requirements to provide valid data
and for registrars to perform validation
processing:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">How do you expect
toothless policy to work *on the Internet*?
Seriously?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes,
seriously. Registrars who do not implement
the policy are subject to having their
accreditation revoked. ICANN has, in fact,
revoked or suspended accreditations. Here
are two examples:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2007-03-16-en" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/news/ann<wbr>ouncement-2-2007-03-16-en</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">https://www.icann.org/en/syste<wbr>m/files/correspondence/serad-<wbr>to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">worst that can happen
when you put in fake whois data is that your
domain gets reported, you change "123 fake
st" to "124 fake st", and your registrar is
satisfied because what more can they
possibly do. I know this because I went
through this with an old sinkhole domain.
It's a total joke. Let's not pretend it's
anything more than that.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Not
true. A fake email address, for example,
can be detected easily when email sent to
it (one of the registrar’s validation
requirements) gets bounced back. The worst
that can happen is that your domain gets
put into some non-operational state
(“suspend the registration” per the RAA).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Scott</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-7850367133527824654m_-3156251146789030328mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<span>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</span></blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-7850367133527824654moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-7850367133527824654moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
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</pre></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
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