<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As someone who does a fair amount of infringement/takedown work, Chris's chain is pretty much like what I was going to type in before I saw his email, at least for the usual IP infringement matters. When it comes to phishing/spam/fraud domains and sites (often siteless domains being used to support a typosquatted email account), there's not much point in contacting the registrant (but there I will often contact LEA). The registrar is rarely, if ever, the first call or even the second (if the registrant is not, e.g., Donald Duck at 123 Fake Street) (maybe for a siteless typosquat supporting phishing/fraud emails, and even there one needs to get to the email provider first (although I've had one case where the sender and the email provider were both buried behind various anonymizing methods, beyond my ability to penetrate)). A reasonably well-documented complaint is a must, of course. I think this is true of the colleagues I know (attorney and non-attorneys) and have worked with, as well.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Unfortunately, there are plenty of non-specialists (attorneys and others) who will take care of these kinds of matters and they will go to the bright shiny object of the registrar with the abuse contact number. It looks easy, and why give away work you think you can do yourself. Training and education could come out of the IP or other relevant communities, or out of non-ICANN cooperative measures akin to the Healthy Domains Initiative. Of course, there's already a fair amount of education out there for anyone who wants to know how to pursue these matters appropriately, but the problem is there's no one place that all of us on both sides of the complainant/recipient dyad can point to and say "read this and do what it says before you send another [adjective] complaint to a [adjective] registrar." (Of course, there are plenty of nuances, exceptions and tricks of the trade, but the basics are pretty ... basic.)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg Shatan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p><div><p style="text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a name="UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter__GoBack"></a></span><b style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#002e62">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">C: 917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>Phone-to-Skype: </span><font color="#000000" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px">646-845-9428<br></span></font><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:0in" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p><p style="font-size:12.8px;text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 2:59 PM, theo geurts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Sounds good Victoria, thanks!</p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Theo<br>
</p></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<div class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-cite-prefix">On 20-2-2017 20:48, Victoria Sheckler
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>If / when this is set up. I'm happy to share with you how we
approach these issues at RIAA.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 20, 2017, at 11:43 AM, theo geurts <<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
Lets shoot for Johannesburg.<br>
<br>
Theo <br>
<br>
<div class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-cite-prefix">On 20-2-2017 17:52, Michele
Neylon - Blacknight wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-8484545784142834307WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Maybe
punt until we’re somewhere a bit more affordable?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Copenhagen
is going to be pricey
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Mr
Michele Neylon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Blacknight
Solutions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Hosting,
Colocation & Domains<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"><a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.blacknight.com/" target="_blank">https://www.blacknight.com/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"><a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank">http://blacknight.blog/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Intl.
<a href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203072" value="+353599183072" target="_blank">+353 (0) 59 9183072</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Direct
Dial: <a href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203090" value="+353599183090" target="_blank">+353 (0)59 9183090</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Personal
blog:
<a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://michele.blog/" target="_blank">https://michele.blog/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Some
thoughts:
<a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank">https://ceo.hosting/</a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">------------------------------<wbr>-<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Blacknight
Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
Park,Sleaty<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93
X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black"><a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@<wbr>icann.org></a>
on behalf of John Horton
<a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank"><john.horton@legitscript.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday 20 February 2017 at 16:43<br>
<b>To: </b>Chris Pelling <a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">
<chris@netearth.net></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>gnso-rds-pdp-wg <a class="m_-8484545784142834307moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of
public whois<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#444444">That <i>was</i>
a good event (the Dublin public safety/registrars
event). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<div>
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<div>
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<div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President and
CEO,
LegitScript</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="m_-8484545784142834307_x0000_i1025" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ" height="36" width="96"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#444444">Follow</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0b5394">
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Legit</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0b5394">Script</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">:
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#cc0000">LinkedIn</span></a>
| <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6aa84f">Facebook</span></a>
| <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#674ea7">Twitter</span></a>
| <u><span style="color:#ff9900"><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></span></u>
|<span style="color:#ff9900">
<a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#ff9900"><img id="m_-8484545784142834307_x0000_i1026" src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png" height="96" border="0" width="46"><img id="m_-8484545784142834307_x0000_i1027" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ" height="96" border="0" width="47"></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 8:29 AM,
Chris Pelling <<a href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">chris@netearth.net</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">HI
Sam,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">Well,
we have ICANN 58 coming up with a very
tight schedule looking at the draft.
Something the registrars took on was at
the Dublin meeting, we booked a room above
a pub, got some drinks and munchies
together, to get the "LEA/Public safety"
and registrars together - the night was a
success.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">IF
we could find somewhere, and get something
sorted, would there be any interest from
the group, and if so, how many ? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">I
appreciate this is a totally different
situation and requirement, but, its just a
thought :)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">Kind
regards,<br>
<br>
Chris<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">
<hr id="m_-8484545784142834307m_-7377122079946866204zwchr" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">From:
</span>
</b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">"Sam
Lanfranco" <<a href="mailto:sam@lanfranco.net" target="_blank">sam@lanfranco.net</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"chris" <<a href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">chris@netearth.net</a>>,
"Michele Neylon" <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, 20 February, 2017
14:38:40<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
Dangers of public whois<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">Chris,
<br>
<br>
Your comment yanked my chain. I agree
with you 100% when you say “The
problem is from the takedown /
infringement requests we see, 1, 2 and
3 [<b><i>due diligence</i></b>] are
not even thought of,
<b>so part of this is education</b>.”
Good idea. How do we get there from
here?<br>
<br>
As an economist I get pulled into very
large project proposals that are being
clobbered together by well meaning,
well educated, people with their own
personal PICs (Public Interest
Commitments) and who just want to do
good. In the “good works” area there
are just as many crooks, frauds, and
sociopaths as can be found trolling in
the DNS system. However, over and over
again it takes me less than two hours
of due diligence to uncover yet one
more “financier” who is a fraud, a
crook, or simply trolling for a big
hit, and has the financial resources
of a raccoon, information the “good
works” people have managed to
overlook.
<br>
<br>
An effective educational strategy is
clearly needed here. That may include
a <b><i>DumbOne’s Guide to DNS
Complaints</i></b> (avoided a
trademark there) and maybe even
generic semi-standard forms for
initiating complaints. To do that, it
would be useful to know the data on
types of complaints by type of
complainant (e.g. how many and what
types come from lawyers, from
individuals, etc.) as background for
better education here. Access to that
"How to" guide should at least be
flagged in the domain name
registration process, the web hosting
process and in queries about
complaining. <br>
<br>
Sam L.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">On
2/20/2017 8:32 AM, Chris Pelling
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">I'll
weigh in here for a registrar
who does not host content that
is not owned by him.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">My
views and points on this are,
for content based issues, in
priority order, top being the
highest (and first port of call)
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">1.
Registrant if available or any
contact that is identifiable on
the website in question, if a
sub-domain, check the main
domain by removing the subdomain
and adding www or leaving it
off. (some free hosting
sites give subdomains away free,
but the main site is always only
1 click away)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">2.
Hosting company, look at the
nameservers and this sometimes
gives the hosting company name,
put the nameserver name into
google and more often than not,
the hosting company will pop up
- contact them alerting them to
the fact that there is
potentially infringing
information on a website that is
hosted on servers under their
control. Good hosting companies
are very responsive.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">3.
If you cannot work out 2 above,
whois the IP address of the
website (including any
subdomain), this will give you
the IP address owner, they will
surely know whom that have given
/ rented / leased the IPs too
and this gives you 2 above. If
you from doing this get the
registrar and they are not the
hosting company, this would lend
to it be a forwarding service, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">4.
If they are a "reseller
centric/wholesale" registrar
(eNom, Tucows. Realtime, NEO),
then WHOIS will often have a
"Registration service provided
by" or "Reseller" in the whois
output, this gives you the
registering party who took the
order, if not at the very least
the registrar.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">The
problem is from the takedown /
infringement requests we see, 1,
2 and 3 are not even thought of,
so part of this is education.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">Kind
regards,<br>
<br>
Chris<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">
<hr id="m_-8484545784142834307m_-7377122079946866204zwchr" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:black">
< rest deleted >
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
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<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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<div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br>
<span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></div>
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
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