<div dir="ltr">>><span style="font-size:12.8px">Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how access would be regulated and structured. </span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Well, nobody knows how access would be regulated and structured since it hasnt been decided yet. Also, it's not hyperbole or fearmongering, it's correct. WHOIS is used in a large number of systems being used on a daily basis. More people who use these systems should speak up in this group, because the people here don't seem to know how the legitimate use of WHOIS is structured.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>I was outlining an opposite extreme, not comparing. <br>
</p>
<p>As to the percentage of fact in the statement, I cannot comment,
but I doubt that a "restriction of easy fluid access" to
registration data would "severely cripple or eliminate the
ability" of LEAs "to conduct investigation in a timely manner". <br>
</p>
<p>Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure
hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know
how access would be regulated and structured. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<div class="m_420115571401257050moz-cite-prefix">Am 06.03.2017 um 17:45 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Interesting that some here consider law enforcement
to be on the same tier of legitimacy as "<span style="font-size:12.8px">cybercriminals and torrent site
operators".</span>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Very interesting.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">By the way, IACP's statement
is 100% factual with regard to how WHOIS is used and the
harms that will happen when it is taken away. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">More investigators need to
join this group, which badly needs some doses of reality.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Volker
Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So why
don't ICANN strip the identity from the sender from
statements to a working group? Anonymous statements would be
the logical consequence of only looking at the argument and
not at the source, would it not?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker
<div class="m_420115571401257050HOEnZb">
<div class="m_420115571401257050h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
Am 06.03.2017 um 17:20 schrieb Andrew Sullivan:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 04:33:02PM +0100, Volker
Greimann wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
the source. If we were to receive a statement from
cybercriminals and<br>
torrent site operators, our reception of the
arguments and content of the<br>
message would be colored by the source as well,
wouldn't it?<br>
<br>
I am not asing to discount the message, I am just
saying do not seperate the<br>
message from the sender.<br>
</blockquote>
I'm extremely uncomfortable with the above premise,
and I think it's<br>
important to make clear why.<br>
<br>
One model of ICANN policy making is that it simply
balances among<br>
interests. The interests are (1) those that show up
and (2) those<br>
that we somehow decide are "legitimate". The problem
with this model<br>
is that it is deeply political. The interests who
"show up" are the<br>
ones who can get funding, and there is incentive to
try to<br>
delegitimize some other interest. There is a basis
for interpreting<br>
ICANN's approach this way, because of the constituency
model and the<br>
way that people identify as part of this or that
group. In this<br>
model, there is no reason for a given stakeholder or
stakeholder group<br>
should in any way acknowledge or argue for positions
outside their<br>
parochial concern, because if someone else wants that
issue to be<br>
considered he or she should similarly attempt to
participate. One<br>
advantage of this model is that it is familiar from
other kinds of<br>
political environments: it emphasises the
"stakeholder" part of<br>
multi-stakeholder.<br>
<br>
A second model of ICANN policy making is that it
attempts to bring in<br>
as many different kinds of stakeholders as possible,
not because these<br>
are somehow representative of a position (the
legitimacy of which is<br>
to be determined), but because "more eyeballs make all
bugs shallow".<br>
That is, a diversity of views allows maximal exposure
of the issues<br>
with respect to a give policy problem, and so it is
better to have<br>
multiple kinds of viewpoints. Under this view,
everyone should strive<br>
to ensure that different viewpoints are taken into
account, even if it<br>
is only so as to say that a given view was taken into
account but the<br>
arguments for it were on balance not as strong as
alternatives.<br>
Constituencies under this view are a useful and
convenient way to do<br>
some early filtering, so that people with common sets
of interests can<br>
explore those common interests in depth without
everyone in the world<br>
needing to participate in every discussion. It is by
definition not<br>
possible to delegitimize a particular interest, though
it is possible<br>
to show that the arguments for that interest are on
balance to be<br>
rejected. An advantage of this model is that it
discourages political<br>
maneuvers in favour of greater discursive policy
discussion: it<br>
emphasises the "multi" part of multi-stakeholder.<br>
<br>
Now, I don't really think that these are either
mutually exclusive<br>
options; neither do I think that we ever get out of
either stance<br>
completely. But the suggestion that we have to take
the source into<br>
consideration with the argument bothers me greatly.
If the New<br>
National-Socialist Stalinist Maoist Khmer Rouge and
Social Credit<br>
Party of Canada[1] came along and made an argument
that certain kinds of<br>
personally-identifying information in the RDS had
negative effects, I<br>
would expect us to take that argument seriously
regardless of the<br>
odiousness of the political stripe we found in their
ideology.<br>
<br>
The position of the Chiefs of Police interest group
was that the<br>
current prevailing policy regime should remain in
place, because it is<br>
convenient for them. Some of the convenience struck
me as possibly<br>
compelling and some of it less so. There was
literally no new<br>
information in their statement, however: every single
one of those<br>
arguments is already exposed in the materials we have
amassed. And<br>
no, I do not think that we should take the position
more or less<br>
seriously because it comes from a law enforcement
lobby group -- any<br>
more than I'd think that if it came from the FBI, the
EFF, the<br>
Regiment of Trademark Fencibles, or the Anti-Sony
Collective of Evil<br>
Genius File Sharers[2]. I'd prefer instead that we
look at the<br>
arguments, not their sources.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
A<br>
<br>
[1] Not an actual political party in Canada.<br>
[2] Not all of these lobbies are real.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
-- <br>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="m_420115571401257050h5">
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_420115571401257050gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_420115571401257050moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
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</pre>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>