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    <p>Whether a particular use is legitimate or not may depend on the

      viewpoint. I do not doubt there is a lot of legitimate use of the

      data. Whether the publication of the data is legitimate is another

      issue though.</p>

    <p>And yes, no one yet knows how a future system would look and

      work, that was kind of my point. LEAs, by making this statement at

      this time either know more than we do or are using hyperbole to

      further their agenda. Which is completely legitimate, but should

      be understood as such. Hence my argument that the source matters

      when looking at the argument. <br>

    </p>

    <p>Best,</p>

    <p>Volker<br>

    </p>

    <br>

    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 06.03.2017 um 18:12 schrieb allison

      nixon:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote

cite="mid:CACLR7wKxkUnHSWc=JKPi0BRtUmRLioXszN5qG0fV72nZZ-6b5Q@mail.gmail.com"

      type="cite">

      <div dir="ltr">&gt;&gt;<span style="font-size:12.8px">Limit or

          impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole

          and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how

          access would be regulated and structured. </span>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Well, nobody knows how

            access would be regulated and structured since it hasnt been

            decided yet. Also, it's not hyperbole or fearmongering, it's

            correct. WHOIS is used in a large number of systems being

            used on a daily basis. More people who use these systems

            should speak up in this group, because the people here don't

            seem to know how the legitimate use of WHOIS is structured.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

      </div>

      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Volker

          Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"

              href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span>

          wrote:<br>

          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0

            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">

              <p>I was outlining an opposite extreme, not comparing. <br>

              </p>

              <p>As to the percentage of fact in the statement, I cannot

                comment, but I doubt that a "restriction of easy fluid

                access" to registration data would "severely cripple or

                eliminate the ability" of LEAs "to conduct investigation

                in a timely manner". <br>

              </p>

              <p>Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate?

                Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do

                not even know how access would be regulated and

                structured. <br>

              </p>

              <p>Best,</p>

              <p>Volker<br>

              </p>

              <div>

                <div class="h5"> <br>

                  <div class="m_420115571401257050moz-cite-prefix">Am

                    06.03.2017 um 17:45 schrieb allison nixon:<br>

                  </div>

                  <blockquote type="cite">

                    <div dir="ltr">Interesting that some here consider

                      law enforcement to be on the same tier of

                      legitimacy as "<span style="font-size:12.8px">cybercriminals

                        and torrent site operators".</span>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

                        </span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Very

                          interesting.</span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

                        </span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">By the way,

                          IACP's statement is 100% factual with regard

                          to how WHOIS is used and the harms that will

                          happen when it is taken away. </span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

                        </span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">More

                          investigators need to join this group, which

                          badly needs some doses of reality.</span></div>

                      <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

                        </span></div>

                    </div>

                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at

                        11:37 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a

                            moz-do-not-send="true"

                            href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"

                            target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span>

                        wrote:<br>

                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0

                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                          solid;padding-left:1ex">So why don't ICANN

                          strip the identity from the sender from

                          statements to a working group? Anonymous

                          statements would be the logical consequence of

                          only looking at the argument and not at the

                          source, would it not?<br>

                          <br>

                          Best,<br>

                          <br>

                          Volker

                          <div class="m_420115571401257050HOEnZb">

                            <div class="m_420115571401257050h5"><br>

                              <br>

                              <br>

                              Am 06.03.2017 um 17:20 schrieb Andrew

                              Sullivan:<br>

                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"

                                style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px

                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Mon,

                                Mar 06, 2017 at 04:33:02PM +0100, Volker

                                Greimann wrote:<br>

                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"

                                  style="margin:0 0 0

                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                  solid;padding-left:1ex"> the source.

                                  If we were to receive a statement from

                                  cybercriminals and<br>

                                  torrent site operators, our reception

                                  of the arguments and content of the<br>

                                  message would be colored by the source

                                  as well, wouldn't it?<br>

                                  <br>

                                  I am not asing to discount the

                                  message, I am just saying do not

                                  seperate the<br>

                                  message from the sender.<br>

                                </blockquote>

                                I'm extremely uncomfortable with the

                                above premise, and I think it's<br>

                                important to make clear why.<br>

                                <br>

                                One model of ICANN policy making is that

                                it simply balances among<br>

                                interests.  The interests are (1) those

                                that show up and (2) those<br>

                                that we somehow decide are

                                "legitimate".  The problem with this

                                model<br>

                                is that it is deeply political.  The

                                interests who "show up" are the<br>

                                ones who can get funding, and there is

                                incentive to try to<br>

                                delegitimize some other interest.  There

                                is a basis for interpreting<br>

                                ICANN's approach this way, because of

                                the constituency model and the<br>

                                way that people identify as part of this

                                or that group.  In this<br>

                                model, there is no reason for a given

                                stakeholder or stakeholder group<br>

                                should in any way acknowledge or argue

                                for positions outside their<br>

                                parochial concern, because if someone

                                else wants that issue to be<br>

                                considered he or she should similarly

                                attempt to participate.  One<br>

                                advantage of this model is that it is

                                familiar from other kinds of<br>

                                political environments: it emphasises

                                the "stakeholder" part of<br>

                                multi-stakeholder.<br>

                                <br>

                                A second model of ICANN policy making is

                                that it attempts to bring in<br>

                                as many different kinds of stakeholders

                                as possible, not because these<br>

                                are somehow representative of a position

                                (the legitimacy of which is<br>

                                to be determined), but because "more

                                eyeballs make all bugs shallow".<br>

                                That is, a diversity of views allows

                                maximal exposure of the issues<br>

                                with respect to a give policy problem,

                                and so it is better to have<br>

                                multiple kinds of viewpoints.  Under

                                this view, everyone should strive<br>

                                to ensure that different viewpoints are

                                taken into account, even if it<br>

                                is only so as to say that a given view

                                was taken into account but the<br>

                                arguments for it were on balance not as

                                strong as alternatives.<br>

                                Constituencies under this view are a

                                useful and convenient way to do<br>

                                some early filtering, so that people

                                with common sets of interests can<br>

                                explore those common interests in depth

                                without everyone in the world<br>

                                needing to participate in every

                                discussion.  It is by definition not<br>

                                possible to delegitimize a particular

                                interest, though it is possible<br>

                                to show that the arguments for that

                                interest are on balance to be<br>

                                rejected.  An advantage of this model is

                                that it discourages political<br>

                                maneuvers in favour of greater

                                discursive policy discussion: it<br>

                                emphasises the "multi" part of

                                multi-stakeholder.<br>

                                <br>

                                Now, I don't really think that these are

                                either mutually exclusive<br>

                                options; neither do I think that we ever

                                get out of either stance<br>

                                completely.  But the suggestion that we

                                have to take the source into<br>

                                consideration with the argument bothers

                                me greatly.  If the New<br>

                                National-Socialist Stalinist Maoist

                                Khmer Rouge and Social Credit<br>

                                Party of Canada[1] came along and made

                                an argument that certain kinds of<br>

                                personally-identifying information in

                                the RDS had negative effects, I<br>

                                would expect us to take that argument

                                seriously regardless of the<br>

                                odiousness of the political stripe we

                                found in their ideology.<br>

                                <br>

                                The position of the Chiefs of Police

                                interest group was that the<br>

                                current prevailing policy regime should

                                remain in place, because it is<br>

                                convenient for them.  Some of the

                                convenience struck me as possibly<br>

                                compelling and some of it less so. 

                                There was literally no new<br>

                                information in their statement, however:

                                every single one of those<br>

                                arguments is already exposed in the

                                materials we have amassed.  And<br>

                                no, I do not think that we should take

                                the position more or less<br>

                                seriously because it comes from a law

                                enforcement lobby group -- any<br>

                                more than I'd think that if it came from

                                the FBI, the EFF, the<br>

                                Regiment of Trademark Fencibles, or the

                                Anti-Sony Collective of Evil<br>

                                Genius File Sharers[2].  I'd prefer

                                instead that we look at the<br>

                                arguments, not their sources.<br>

                                <br>

                                Best regards,<br>

                                <br>

                                A<br>

                                <br>

                                [1] Not an actual political party in

                                Canada.<br>

                                [2] Not all of these lobbies are real.<br>

                              </blockquote>

                              <br>

                              -- <br>

                            </div>

                          </div>

                          <div class="m_420115571401257050HOEnZb">

                            <div class="m_420115571401257050h5"> Bei

                              weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur

                              Verfügung.<br>

                              <br>

                              Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<br>

                              <br>

                              Volker A. Greimann<br>

                              - Rechtsabteilung -<br>

                              <br>

                              Key-Systems GmbH<br>

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                              e-mail, kindly notify the author by

                              replying to this e-mail or contacting us

                              by telephone.<br>

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                            <div class="m_420115571401257050h5">

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                      -- <br>

                      <div class="m_420115571401257050gmail_signature"

                        data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>

                        Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>

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                  </blockquote>

                  <br>

                  <pre class="m_420115571401257050moz-signature" cols="72">-- 

Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>

Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>

Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>

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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:

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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin

Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 

Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

------------------------------<wbr>--------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>

Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>

Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_420115571401257050moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>

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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:

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CEO: Alexander Siffrin

Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 

V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

</pre>

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</blockquote></div>

<div>

</div>-- 

<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________

Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 