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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/23/2017 04:04 AM, Volker Greimann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
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<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whois is the rope with which bad actors hang themselves.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with
data of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any
verification and validation instruments useless and
inconveniencing the affected data subjects as well. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak for
the value of the information. We're using it in criminal
investigations and prosecutions. You're just simply taking their
money.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>For every piece of data that is already gathered under
the most comprehensive WHOIS regime, there is a strong
industry backed argument that the data needs to continue
being collected, and for it to remain available. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Which industry? Not the domain industry. And when it comes to
collection and handling of private data, our purposes for it is
all that matters legally unless there is a requirement by law to
collect and store.But in that case, compliance with local law
would be the acceptable purpose.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, you've made your position quite clear. But ICANN nor this
group is a trade association of registrars solely focused on
maximizing your profits and minimizing your expenses and allowing
you to dump all the risk on society at large. But there are other
voices here and that's what the multi-stakeholder model is, it means
you don't get to be the only one talking.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> <br>
To drive the point home: the purposes of third parties, including
law enforcement have no relevance to the legal requirements for
the collection and handling of private data. None whatsoever!<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
You have a contract with ICANN, that contract establishes
requirements. Those requirements make it legal.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> But we can find criminals faster with it! - No legal
relevance.<br>
But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.<br>
etc...<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them. You get a voice, we
get a voice. That's how contracts work. <br>
<br>
Chuck, this is why we're in trench warfare. And it isn't going to
change.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So fully standardizing this will probably force some
registrars to collect and share far more data than they
currently do, and it's unlikely to reduce the data collected
by the ones who collect more.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Nope, the opposite is true.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> Best,<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div><br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM,
John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a future action item
could be a survey of who various classes of
stakeholders use RDS/whois. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">I have a hard time understanding
what very stakeholder wants. If every group
of stakeholder could write down how they see
the new RDS functioning, just by doing a
Venn diagram, we could better understand
what we have in common and what we need to
foncus on to reduce differences of opinion.</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">But that would require more work
from already busy people. I think though, it
could give us a more tangible view of what
we are up against. </div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">My .02 cents<br>
</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr"> </div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525218"> </div>
<div class="m_6118818800519014376signature"
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525216">Nathalie </div>
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="m_6118818800519014376yahoo_quoted"
style="display:block">
<div
style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div
style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"
size="2"> On Tuesday, March 21, 2017
9:45 PM, Andrew Sullivan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376y_msg_container">On
Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM -0500,
John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
wrote:<br clear="none">
> Except that is not the only
approach to the problem nor the ones
exclusively used by DP authorities
(i.e. Twitter). That is why I asked
the question I did and why I will be
lobbying them directly for whois
privacy for free. <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
But I thought the point of what we
were doing was to make some<br
clear="none">
proposals for what to mask and how --
basically, that's what<br clear="none">
differential access does. And I also
thought we were at the beginning<br
clear="none">
of that effort (much as it frustrates
me the rate at which we move).<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> The question of whether fields
are optional or can be "masked" is
inherently part of this discussion. <br
clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
That's just conflating two different
things. The first thing is to<br
clear="none">
ask whether something should be
collected _at all_. Then one can ask,<br
clear="none">
if something is collected, who may
obtain it and under what<br
clear="none">
circumstances. This latter is the
"masking" of which you speak. And<br
clear="none">
it's all implemented as it currently
is because whois is brain-dead.<br
clear="none">
So let us not be restricted to the
functionality we can get from a<br
clear="none">
primitive protocol that had already
been extended well beyond its<br
clear="none">
design constraints more than 20 years
ago.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable third-parties to
communicate directly to resolve and
troubleshoot problems. <br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I suggest that's already there.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable third-parties to report
abuse or security incidents so they
may be resolved. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This too.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable users and entities to
have information to adjudicate an
entity is who they say they are (for
instance phishing, scams, fake news).
<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I find it impossible to imagine using
the whois for this purpose, so<br
clear="none">
I'd like a use description for this.
Since it's not authenticated or<br
clear="none">
authenticatable information anyway, as
there are no signatures and so<br
clear="none">
on, it seems a pretty poor way to do
it. This is partly included in<br
clear="none">
the purposes however when we discuss
X.509 certificates.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> ICANN isn't just a business to
confer domain names. Its a
quasi-regulatory body over a "commons"
and a natural monopoly. The purposes
must be viewed beyond the prism of the
mere registrar-consumer relationship
as many interests are relevant and
just as important. <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
While I strongly agree that the
purposes need to be rather wider than<br
clear="none">
the domain name industry, I'm
uncomfortable with both of the claims
of<br clear="none">
quasi-regulatory authority, the notion
of the Internet as a commons.<br
clear="none">
The root zone is indeed a natural
monopoly, though.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best regards,
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376yqt3699957111"
id="m_6118818800519014376yqtfd28570"><br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
A<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-- <br clear="none">
Andrew Sullivan<br clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br
clear="none">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br
clear="none">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br
clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br
clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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