<html>
<body>
Nathalie and all,<br><br>
This and other background documents can be found on this page:<br>
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gTLDRDS/Additional+Key+Inputs" eudora="autourl">
https://community.icann.org/display/gTLDRDS/Additional+Key+Inputs</a><br>
<br>
In this case, see the following --<br><br>
<b>Procedure for Handling Conflicts with National Laws</b>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/whois-privacy/council-rpt-18jan06.htm">
GNSO Policy underlying current ICANN Procedure</a> (2006)
<li>
<a href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/whois-privacy-conflicts-procedure-2008-01-17-en">
ICANN Procedure For Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law</a> (2008)
<li>
<a href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/whois-conflicts-procedure-2014-05-22-en">
Review of the ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy
Law</a> (2014)
<li>2013 RAA's
<a href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en#data-retention">
Data Retention Specification Waiver</a> and
<a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/draft-data-retention-spec-elements-21mar14-en.pdf">
Discussion Document</a> (2014)
<li>
<a href="https://gnso.icann.org/en/drafts/iag-review-whois-conflicts-procedure-23may16-en.pdf">
Final Report on the Implementation Advisory Group Review of Existing
ICANN Procedure for Handling Whois Conflicts with Privacy Laws</a>
(2016)
</ul>Best, Lisa<br><br>
<br>
At 09:08 AM 3/23/2017, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hi Lisa,<br><br>
Could you refer me to the documents providing for the Exception to the
application of a law due to conflict, that was referred to at some point
(by teh WG on transition from thin to thick Whois)?<br><br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
<br>
Nathalie <br><br>
<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>On Thursday, March 23, 2017 11:00
AM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org>
wrote:<br>
</font><br><br>
<br><br>
Sent from my iPhone<br><br>
On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:44, Volker Greimann
<<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">
vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
Whois is the rope with which bad actors hang
themselves.</blockquote>Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just
populate whois with data of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering
any verification and validation instruments useless and inconveniencing
the affected data subjects as well. </blockquote><br>
I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak for the
value of the information. We're using it in criminal investigations
and prosecutions. You're just simply taking their
money.</blockquote>Believe it or not, bad actors cost us money. We'd love
to be able to "not to take their money" as it is a poisoned
pill.<br>
And we see the whois data used by criminals all the time, when we look at
the reports we are sent. Usually it is fake data ripped from some online
database or the phone book.</blockquote><br>
So its a baseless allegation that investigators might have expertise in
how they use this data? Only domain registrars who have a financial
relationship with the criminals know how to use this data?</blockquote>I
referred to your last sentence which directly implied that registrars in
general and the registrar I am employed with in particular profit from
criminals using their service. This is a baseless allegation that could
not be farther from the truth, as I have previously explained. <br><br>
<br>
That's a rather dramatic misreading. We investigate crimes so I would
appreciate due deference to what data is valuable or not. Your role here
is providing a service. You don't work with law enforcement to
investigate crimes, do you?<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I have used the law to craft a
possible solution but no DP authority has taken your position.
</blockquote>Ultimately, that may be the road we have to take if no
better solution to provide registrar services legally presents itself,
but as I pointed out, that will ultimately serve no one. Registrars will
have to raise their fees to incorporate the service, crime fighters and
LEAs will have a much more difficult time getting ANY data across
borders. Your "solution" would just make your own work a lot
harder.<br>
</blockquote><br>
I think perhaps deference to my opinion as to what would make MY work
harder might be warranted. If you agree, I offer the same deference to
you in matters in which your expertise is germane. Deal?<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You are simply taking the
position that if your profits aren't maximized and your costs aren't
minimized it is illegal. This position is untenable. </blockquote>Again,
I resent you putting words into my mouth. Please do not make statements
on my behalf or try to turn your assumptions into a claim of what I am
saying. I am saying that anything we come up with will have to be in full
compliance with legal requirements. And if there is a cost attached to
that solution, that cost will be passed on somewhere, one way or another,
not because I want it to but because I know that is the way it
works.</blockquote><br>
To which I agree. Let's craft a legal solution the represents the best of
what we can offer for all ours (you, me, and everyone else's) interests.
I think we can do balance. Will you join me in trying?<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">> You have a contract with
ICANN, that contract establishes requirements. Those requirements make it
legal.<br>
If you believe that, you probably still believe in Trump and other things
as well. The above statement is so supendiously wrong, it boggles the
mind. You are basically saying that a contract to break the law somehow
makes it ok to do so? So if we signed a contract tomorrow to rob the
local bank, that absolves us from any guilt? </blockquote><br>
No one care about your inane political opinions. </blockquote>So I was
right?<br>
Also good attempt at dodging the argument, but the point I made still
stands.</blockquote><br>
No, I just don't think constantly injecting your political opinions is
helpful. I won't inject comments about Merkel because they are
irrelevant. Let's get out of our trenches and have more constructive
dialogue. Will you join me?<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
For clarity: The contract with ICANN can say that pigs may fly, but that
does not change the laws of physics. If anything in the contract or ICANN
policies violates applicable law, that part of the contract is null and
void, does not apply, can be ignored, has no relevance, etc, etc. BTW: it
even says so in the RAA. Maybe you can find the relevant passage
yourself...</blockquote><br>
If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have the facts on
your side, pound the facts. Since you have neither, you pound the
table. </blockquote>Just because you appear not to like the facts
or the laws, they do not become less applicable. </blockquote><br>
No one has all the facts here and no one is a master of the laws of every
nation on this subject. Let's build bridges to build common
understanding. Can I count on you?<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">But we can find criminals faster
with it! - No legal relevance.<br>
But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.<br>
etc...</blockquote><br>
ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them. </blockquote>If ICANN sets
illegal rules, we get to ignore them. So why set illegal rules in the
first place? To trap the unwitting and careless registrars? <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You get a voice, we get a voice.
</blockquote>Your voice can demand anything it likes, but if it is not in
compliance with the law, it will be ignored. And rightly so. <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">That's how contracts work.
</blockquote>Nope! Contracts do not allow a contracted party to break the
law. There is a reason assassination contracts are illegal.<br>
</blockquote><br>
No one is suggesting you break the law. Calm down. <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Chuck, this is why we're in
trench warfare. And it isn't going to change.</blockquote>Appears
so. If one side continues to demand the illegal and the impossible for
their own benefit, we will get nowhere. So why not educate yourself on
the requirements of current and upcoming privacy regulations and
afterwards, we can talk again...</blockquote><br>
No one is demanding anything illegal. <br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">So fully standardizing this will
probably force some registrars to collect and share far more data than
they currently do, and it's unlikely to reduce the data collected by the
ones who collect more.</blockquote>Nope, the opposite is true.<br><br>
Best,<br>
Volker<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><br><br>
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
<<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd>Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a future action item could be a
survey of who various classes of stakeholders use RDS/whois. <br><br>
<dd>Sent from my iPhone<br><br>
<dd>On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
<<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>I have a hard time understanding what very stakeholder wants. If
every group of stakeholder could write down how they see the new RDS
functioning, just by doing a Venn diagram, we could better understand
what we have in common and what we need to foncus on to reduce
differences of opinion.<br>
<dd>But that would require more work from already busy people. I think
though, it could give us a more tangible view of what we are up against.
<br><br>
<dd>My .02 cents<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Nathalie <br><br>
<br>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:45
PM, Andrew Sullivan
<<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>
> wrote:<br>
</font><br><br>
<dd>On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM -0500, John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br>
<dd>> Except that is not the only approach to the problem nor the ones
exclusively used by DP authorities (i.e. Twitter). That is why I asked
the question I did and why I will be lobbying them directly for whois
privacy for free. <br>
<dd>> <br><br>
<dd>But I thought the point of what we were doing was to make some<br>
<dd>proposals for what to mask and how -- basically, that's what<br>
<dd>differential access does. And I also thought we were at the
beginning<br>
<dd>of that effort (much as it frustrates me the rate at which we
move).<br><br>
<dd>> The question of whether fields are optional or can be
"masked" is inherently part of this discussion. <br>
<dd>> <br><br>
<dd>That's just conflating two different things. The first thing is
to<br>
<dd>ask whether something should be collected _at all_. Then one
can ask,<br>
<dd>if something is collected, who may obtain it and under what<br>
<dd>circumstances. This latter is the "masking" of which
you speak. And<br>
<dd>it's all implemented as it currently is because whois is
brain-dead.<br>
<dd>So let us not be restricted to the functionality we can get from
a<br>
<dd>primitive protocol that had already been extended well beyond
its<br>
<dd>design constraints more than 20 years ago.<br><br>
<dd>> To enable third-parties to communicate directly to resolve and
troubleshoot problems. <br><br>
<dd>I suggest that's already there.<br><br>
<dd>> To enable third-parties to report abuse or security incidents so
they may be resolved. <br><br>
<dd>This too.<br><br>
<dd>> To enable users and entities to have information to adjudicate
an entity is who they say they are (for instance phishing, scams, fake
news). <br>
<dd>> <br><br>
<dd>I find it impossible to imagine using the whois for this purpose,
so<br>
<dd>I'd like a use description for this. Since it's not
authenticated or<br>
<dd>authenticatable information anyway, as there are no signatures and
so<br>
<dd>on, it seems a pretty poor way to do it. This is partly
included in<br>
<dd>the purposes however when we discuss X.509 certificates.<br><br>
<dd>> ICANN isn't just a business to confer domain names. Its a
quasi-regulatory body over a "commons" and a natural monopoly.
The purposes must be viewed beyond the prism of the mere
registrar-consumer relationship as many interests are relevant and just
as important. <br>
<dd>> <br>
<br>
<dd>While I strongly agree that the purposes need to be rather wider
than<br>
<dd>the domain name industry, I'm uncomfortable with both of the claims
of<br>
<dd>quasi-regulatory authority, the notion of the Internet as a
commons.<br>
<dd>The root zone is indeed a natural monopoly, though.<br><br>
<dd>Best regards, <br><br>
<br>
<dd>A<br><br>
<dd>-- <br>
<dd>Andrew Sullivan<br>
<dd><a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br>
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Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
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Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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