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Here we go again with the baseless allegations.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whois is the rope with which bad actors hang
themselves.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with
data of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any
verification and validation instruments useless and
inconveniencing the affected data subjects as well. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak
for the value of the information. We're using it in criminal
investigations and prosecutions. You're just simply taking their
money.<br>
</blockquote>
Believe it or not, bad actors cost us money. We'd love to be able to
"not to take their money" as it is a poisoned pill.<br>
And we see the whois data used by criminals all the time, when we
look at the reports we are sent. Usually it is fake data ripped from
some online database or the phone book.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>For every piece of data that is already gathered under
the most comprehensive WHOIS regime, there is a strong
industry backed argument that the data needs to continue
being collected, and for it to remain available. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Which industry? Not the domain industry. And when it comes to
collection and handling of private data, our purposes for it is
all that matters legally unless there is a requirement by law to
collect and store.But in that case, compliance with local law
would be the acceptable purpose.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, you've made your position quite clear. But ICANN nor this
group is a trade association of registrars solely focused on
maximizing your profits and minimizing your expenses and allowing
you to dump all the risk on society at large. But there are other
voices here and that's what the multi-stakeholder model is, it
means you don't get to be the only one talking.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The multistakeholder model does not trump applicable law. You can
demand anything you want, but when it violates our legal
requirements, it will not fly. This is not an issue that is even up
for debate. If 99% of this WG demanded something that was illegal to
implement, it still will be turned down. <br>
Collect your consolation prize over at the booth of the local
governments. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> <br>
To drive the point home: the purposes of third parties,
including law enforcement have no relevance to the legal
requirements for the collection and handling of private data.
None whatsoever!<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
You have a contract with ICANN, that contract establishes
requirements. Those requirements make it legal.<br>
</blockquote>
If you believe that, you probably still believe in Trump and other
things as well. The above statement is so supendiously wrong, it
boggles the mind. You are basically saying that a contract to break
the law somehow makes it ok to do so? So if we signed a contract
tomorrow to rob the local bank, that absolves us from any guilt? <br>
<br>
For clarity: The contract with ICANN can say that pigs may fly, but
that does not change the laws of physics. If anything in the
contract or ICANN policies violates applicable law, that part of the
contract is null and void, does not apply, can be ignored, has no
relevance, etc, etc. BTW: it even says so in the RAA. Maybe you can
find the relevant passage yourself...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite"> <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> But we can find criminals faster with it! - No
legal relevance.<br>
But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.<br>
etc...<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them. </blockquote>
If ICANN sets illegal rules, we get to ignore them. So why set
illegal rules in the first place? To trap the unwitting and careless
registrars?
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">You get a voice, we get a voice. </blockquote>
Your voice can demand anything it likes, but if it is not in
compliance with the law, it will be ignored. And rightly so. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">That's how contracts work. <br>
</blockquote>
Nope! Contracts do not allow a contracted party to break the law.
There is a reason assassination contracts are illegal.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite"> Chuck, this is why we're in trench warfare. And it
isn't going to change.<br>
</blockquote>
Appears so. If one side continues to demand the illegal and the
impossible for their own benefit, we will get nowhere. So why not
educate yourself on the requirements of current and upcoming privacy
regulations and afterwards, we can talk again...<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7eabbcfb-f977-d15c-4cb7-1be1253b2e0f@bambenekconsulting.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So fully standardizing this will probably force some
registrars to collect and share far more data than they
currently do, and it's unlikely to reduce the data
collected by the ones who collect more.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Nope, the opposite is true.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f5eeb931-ae92-b2cd-c708-303c6187f4c8@key-systems.net"
type="cite"> Best,<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACLR7wKirBWU45T_r+i37ytbBEbo8OZU7oKfV3RXnt4DQUQDoQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM,
John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a future action
item could be a survey of who various classes of
stakeholders use RDS/whois. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">I have a hard time understanding
what very stakeholder wants. If every
group of stakeholder could write down how
they see the new RDS functioning, just by
doing a Venn diagram, we could better
understand what we have in common and what
we need to foncus on to reduce differences
of opinion.</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">But that would require more work
from already busy people. I think though,
it could give us a more tangible view of
what we are up against. </div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr">My .02 cents<br>
</div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525220"
dir="ltr"> </div>
<div
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525218"> </div>
<div class="m_6118818800519014376signature"
id="m_6118818800519014376yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490101127081_525216">Nathalie </div>
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376yahoo_quoted"
style="display:block">
<div
style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div
style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"
size="2"> On Tuesday, March 21,
2017 9:45 PM, Andrew Sullivan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376y_msg_container">On
Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM
-0500, John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br
clear="none">
> Except that is not the only
approach to the problem nor the ones
exclusively used by DP authorities
(i.e. Twitter). That is why I asked
the question I did and why I will be
lobbying them directly for whois
privacy for free. <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
But I thought the point of what we
were doing was to make some<br
clear="none">
proposals for what to mask and how
-- basically, that's what<br
clear="none">
differential access does. And I
also thought we were at the
beginning<br clear="none">
of that effort (much as it
frustrates me the rate at which we
move).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> The question of whether fields
are optional or can be "masked" is
inherently part of this discussion.
<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
That's just conflating two different
things. The first thing is to<br
clear="none">
ask whether something should be
collected _at all_. Then one can
ask,<br clear="none">
if something is collected, who may
obtain it and under what<br
clear="none">
circumstances. This latter is the
"masking" of which you speak. And<br
clear="none">
it's all implemented as it currently
is because whois is brain-dead.<br
clear="none">
So let us not be restricted to the
functionality we can get from a<br
clear="none">
primitive protocol that had already
been extended well beyond its<br
clear="none">
design constraints more than 20
years ago.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable third-parties to
communicate directly to resolve and
troubleshoot problems. <br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I suggest that's already there.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable third-parties to
report abuse or security incidents
so they may be resolved. <br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This too.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> To enable users and entities to
have information to adjudicate an
entity is who they say they are (for
instance phishing, scams, fake
news). <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I find it impossible to imagine
using the whois for this purpose, so<br
clear="none">
I'd like a use description for
this. Since it's not authenticated
or<br clear="none">
authenticatable information anyway,
as there are no signatures and so<br
clear="none">
on, it seems a pretty poor way to do
it. This is partly included in<br
clear="none">
the purposes however when we discuss
X.509 certificates.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> ICANN isn't just a business to
confer domain names. Its a
quasi-regulatory body over a
"commons" and a natural monopoly.
The purposes must be viewed beyond
the prism of the mere
registrar-consumer relationship as
many interests are relevant and just
as important. <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
While I strongly agree that the
purposes need to be rather wider
than<br clear="none">
the domain name industry, I'm
uncomfortable with both of the
claims of<br clear="none">
quasi-regulatory authority, the
notion of the Internet as a commons.<br
clear="none">
The root zone is indeed a natural
monopoly, though.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best regards,
<div
class="m_6118818800519014376yqt3699957111"
id="m_6118818800519014376yqtfd28570"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
A<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-- <br clear="none">
Andrew Sullivan<br clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br
clear="none">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br
clear="none">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br
clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br
clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
shape="rect"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br>
<span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
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href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
<br>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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Key-Systems GmbH
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
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Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
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