<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We also need to be very clear about the limits of the legal requirements of applicable law, and the various options available for dealing with the law. There's no need to overcomply. Indeed it would be quite unreasonable to do so. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Just as paying the lowest calculable income tax is perfectly legitimate, so is complying with the law in the least disruptive way possible.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p><div><p style="text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a name="UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter__GoBack"></a></span><b style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#002e62">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">C: 917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>Phone-to-Skype: </span><font color="#000000" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px">646-845-9428<br></span></font><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:0in" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p><p style="font-size:12.8px;text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>I wish it were so simple. "Doing harm" is not necessary to be in
violation with applicable law. Just like jaywalking, speeding on
an empty road or crossing a red light carries a fine regardless of
whether harm was done, privacy law too does not care about an
actual harm.</p>
<p>We need to be very clear about the legal requirements when we
define the limits of what can be done with the data we collect,
and by whom. <br>
</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-cite-prefix">Am 26.04.2017 um 18:43 schrieb John
Horton:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Greg, well said. And Tim, well said. And I'll strongly +1
Michael Hammer as well. I agree with the "do no harm" philosophy
-- I'm not convinced that some of the proposed changes (e.g.,
those outlined in the EWG report) wouldn't cause more harm than
the existing, admittedly imperfect, system. As I've said before,
the importance of tools like Reverse Whois isn't only direct --
it's derivative as well. (If you enjoy the benefits of those of
us who fight payment fraud, online abuse and other sorts of
malfeasance, you have reverse Whois among other tools to thank.)
Privacy laws in one part of the world are a factor we need to be
aware of, among other factors. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:07 AM nathalie coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div id="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1493211374941_228723"><span>+1</span></div>
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<div id="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1493211374941_228721"> </div>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651signature" id="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1493211374941_228719">Nathalie </div>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> On Wednesday,
April 26, 2017 12:02 PM, Victoria Sheckler
<<a href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" target="_blank">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font></div>
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<div>+1<br clear="none">
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Sent from my iPhone</div>
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On Apr 26, 2017, at 8:56 AM, Greg Shatan
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_default">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thanks for weighing in, Tim.
Since this is a multi<u>stakeholder</u> process,
everyone is assumed to come in
with a point of view, so don't
be shy. At the same time, if
stakeholders cling dogmatically
to their points of view the
multistakeholder model doesn't
work.<br clear="none">
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="none">
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As for being out on a limb:</div>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_default">
<ul style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<li>We haven't decided what
data will be "private" and
for which registrants (e.g.,
based on geography or entity
status)</li>
<li>We haven't decided there
will be "gated" access and
what that might mean, both
for policy and practicality</li>
<li>The question shouldn't be
whether we will be "allowing
third parties access to
harvest, repackage and
republish that data," but
how we should allow this in
a way that balances various
concerns. Eliminating
reverse Whois and other such
services is not a goal of
this Working Group.</li>
</ul>
<div><font face="verdana,
sans-serif">Our job should
be to provide the greatest
possible access to the best
possible data, consistent
with minimizing risk under
reasonable interpretations
of applicable law. We need
to deal with existing and
incoming privacy laws (and
with other laws) as well,
but not in a worshipful
manner; instead it should be
in a solution-oriented
manner. This is not, after
all, the Privacy Working
Group. I'll +1 Michael
Hammer: </font><span style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Rather
than starting from a model
of justifying everything
and anything from a
privacy perspective, I
would suggest that it
would be much more
appropriate, other than
technical changes such as
moving towards using JSON,
to require justification
and consensus for any
changes from the existing
model(s) of WHOIS.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Finally,
while our purpose is not
to maintain anyone's
economic interest,
economic interests may
well be aligned with
policy interests.
Assuming that economic
interests are at odds with
policy interests is just
as dangerous as assuming
that policy interests are
served by maximizing
economic interests.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Greg</font></span></div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div style="text-indent:0in"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" name="m_-6028739752990097634_m_-7057533978763232585_m_7951444643704396651_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter__GoBack"></a></span><b style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Greg Shatan<br clear="none">
</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">C:
<a href="tel:(917)%20816-6428" value="+19178166428" target="_blank">917-816-6428</a><br clear="none">
S: gsshatan<br clear="none">
Phone-to-Skype: </span><font face="Arial, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="font-size:13.3333px"><a href="tel:(646)%20845-9428" value="+16468459428" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a><br clear="none">
</span></font><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:0in" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></div>
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote">On
Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:28 AM,
Dotzero <span>
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" target="_blank">dotzero@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br clear="none">
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<div>Adding to what Tim
and Allison wrote.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
As a starting point,
I've had an account with
DomainTools in the past
and will likely have one
in the future, although
I don't currently have
one.
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
There are other
organizations and
individuals which
consume/aggregate whois
data so I don't think
that for the purposes of
this discussion the
focus should be on just
DomainTools. I know
researchers and
academics who use this
data to analyze all
sorts of things. As has
been pointed out, there
are all sorts of folks
staking out positions
because of their
economic (and other)
interests without
necessarily being
transparent about those
interests.
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
It should be remembered
that the Internet is an
agglomeration of many
networks and resources,
some public and some
private. At the same time,
it is simply a bunch of
technical standards that
people and organizations
have agreed to use to
interact with each other.
In many cases, the
ultimate solution to abuse
is to drop route. To the
extent that good and
granular information is
not readily available,
regular (innocent) users
may suffer as owners and
administrators of
resources act to protect
those resources and their
legitimate users from
abuse and maliciousness.
The reality is that most
users of the internet
utilize a relatively small
subset of all the
resources out there. For
some, a service like
Facebook IS the Internet.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
It may also incite a
tendency towards returning
to a model of walled
gardens. At various points
I have heard discussions
about the balkanization of
the internet, with things
like separate roots, etc.
People should think very
carefully about what they
are asking for because
they may not be happy with
it if they actually get
it.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Rather than starting from a
model of justifying
everything and anything from
a privacy perspective, I
would suggest that it would
be much more appropriate,
other than technical changes
such as moving towards using
JSON, to require
justification and consensus
for any changes from the
existing model(s) of WHOIS.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Michael Hammer
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_extra">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote">On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 10:27
AM, allison
nixon <span>
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
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<blockquote class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Thank you
for your email
Tim. </div>
<div>Full
disclosure(because
I believe in
being
transparent
about this
sort of
thing), we do
business with
Domaintools
and use their
tools to
consume whois
data.</div>
<span>
</span>
<div>"i'll
close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the point
of the WG is
not to protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion."</div>
<div>I will
however
disagree
vehemently
with you on
this point. It
is obvious
that many of
the arguments
to cut off
anonymous
querying to
WHOIS data are
economically
motivated.
Financial
concerns are
cited numerous
times in
approved
documents. I
also believe
the "vetting"
process is
likely to
become a new
revenue stream
for someone as
well. A
revenue stream
with HIGHLY
questionable
privacy
value-add.
</div>
<div>Every
dollar of
income for the
Domaintools
company and
others like it
come from
their clients,
who see a
multiplier of
value from it.
That means for
every dollar
spent on the
entire whois
aggregator
industry means
that a much
larger amount
of money is
saved through
prevented
harms like
fraud, abuse,
and even fake
medications
which kill
people.</div>
<div>I think
it is
extremely
important to
identify what
critical
systems rely
on whois
(either
directly or
downstream),
and determine
if we are
ready to give
up the utility
of these
systems.
</div>
<div>We also
need to
identify the
value of the
ability to
anonymously
query whois
and what that
loss of
privacy will
mean as well.
While I
obviously do
not make many
queries
anonymously(although
our vendor has
their own
privacy
policy), I
understand
this is
important
especially to
those
researching
more dangerous
actors. Why
would
$_COUNTRY
dissidents
want to query
domains when
their
opponents
would surely
be hacking
into the audit
logs for this?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m_615767156484145872HOEnZb">
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<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_extra"><br clear="none">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote">On
Apr 25, 2017
11:41 PM,
"Chen, Tim"
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com" target="_blank">tim@domaintools.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">"And
I hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine."</span><br clear="none">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">happy
to do so.
DomainTools is
clearly a
stakeholder in
this debate.
and we have a
fair amount of
experience
around the
challenges,
benefits and
risks of whois
data
aggregation at
scale. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">from
the beginning
of this
EWG/RDS idea
we've stood
down bc i
didn't believe
our opinion
would be seen
as
objective-enough
given our line
of business.
but it is
apparent to me
having
followed this
debate for
many weeks
now, that this
is a working
group of
individuals
who all bring
their own
biases into
the debate.
whether they
care to admit
that to
themselves or
not. so we
might as well
wade in too.
bc I think
our experience
is very
relevant to
the
discussion.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">i'll
do my best to
be as
objective as I
can, as a
domain
registrant
myself and as
an informed
industry
participant.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">since
our experience
is working
with security
minded
organizations,
that is the
context with
which I will
comment. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">since
this is an
ICANN working
group, I start
with the ICANN
mission
statement
around the
security and
stability of
the DNS. I
find myself
wanting to fit
this debate to
that as the
north star. i
do not see the
RDS as purpose
driven to fit
the GDPR or
any
region-specific
legal
resolution.
but I do see
those as
important
inputs to our
discussion.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">from
a security
perspective,
my experience
is that the
benefits of
the current
Whois model,
taken with
this lens, far
outweigh the
costs. again,
I can only
speak from my
experience
here at
DomainTools,
and obviously
under the
current Whois
regime. This
is not to say
it cannot be
improved.
From a data
accuracy
perspective
alone there is
enormous room
for
improvement as
I think we can
all agree.
every day I
see the
tangible
benefits to
security
interests,
which for the
most part are
"doing good",
from the work
that we do.
when I
compare that
to the
complaints
that we get bc
"my PII is
visible in
your data",
it's not even
close by my
value
barometer
(which my
differ from
others').
this is
relevant bc
any future
solution will
be imperfect
as I have
mentioned
before. as
Allison and
others point
out we need to
measure the
harm done by
any new system
that may seek
to solve one
problem
(privacy?) and
inadvertently
create many
more. since
this group is
fond of
analogies I'll
contribute one
from the
medical oath
(not sure if
this is just
U.S.) "first,
do no harm".</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">i'll
close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the
point of the
WG is not to
protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion.
but I also
think "it's
too expensive"
or "it's too
hard" are weak
and dangerous
excuses when
dealing with
an issue like
this which has
enormous and
far reaching
consequences
for the very
mission of
ICANN around
the security
and stability
of our
internet.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Tim</span></div>
</div>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_extra"><br clear="none">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote">On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 3:50
PM, allison
nixon <span>
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Thanks
for the
documentation
in your
earlier email.
While I
understand
that's how
things are
supposed to
work in
theory, it's
not
implemented
very widely,
and unless
there is
enforcement,
then it's
unlikely to be
useful at all.
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
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<div>"<span style="font-size:12.8px">as
a given, we
put ourselves
in a certain
position in
terms of the
actions we can
and cannot
recommend. We
can make
similar
statements
focused on
registry
operators,
registrars, or
any other
stakeholder in
this space. If
we all
approach this
WG's task with
the goal of
not changing
anything,
we're all just
wasting our
time."</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<span style="font-size:12.8px">There
are things
that people
would be
willing to
change about
WHOIS. Changes
purely
relating to
the data
format would
not be as
controversial.
Changing to
that RDAP json
format would
probably be an
agreeable
point to most
here.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">There
are two
different
major points
of contention
here. The
first is the
data format,
second is the
creation of a
new monopoly
and ceding
power to it.
By monopoly I
mean- who are
the
gatekeepers of
"gated"
access? Will
it avoid all
of the
problems that
monopolies are
historically
prone to? Who
will pay them?
It seems like
a massive leap
of faith to
commit to this
without
knowing who we
are making the
commitment to.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">"</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">I do not believe it is this WG's responsibility
to protect
anyone's</span></div>
<span style="font-size:12.8px">commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to</span><br style="font-size:12.8px" clear="none">
<span style="font-size:12.8px">deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. "</span>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">From
my
understanding
of past ICANN
working
groups,
registrars
have fought
against issues
that would
have increased
their costs.
And the
destruction of
useful WHOIS
results(or
becoming
beholden to
some new
monopoly)
stand to incur
far more costs
for far larger
industries. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">So this shouldn't surprise you. If those
economic
concerns are
not valid then
I question why
the economic
concerns of
registrars are
valid.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">If
entire
industries are
built around a
feature you
would consider
a
"deficiency",
then your
opinion may
solely be your
own. And I
hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">"Not</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> trying to hamstring the WG. Just asking if
this is not
something that
has already
been solved.."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Hi
Paul,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">It's
an interesting
thought. This
document was
recommended to
me as one that
was approved
in the past by
the working
group that
outlined what
the resulting
system might
look like. I'm
still learning
and reading
about these
working groups
and what they
do, and this
document is
massive.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-06jun14-en.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/syste
m/files/files/final-report-06j
un14-en.pdf</a></span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">In
the document,
it says: <i>"Central
to the remit
of the EWG is
the question
of how to
design a
system that
increases </i></span><i><span style="font-size:12.8px">the accuracy of the data collected while also
offering
protections
for those
Registrants </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">seeking to guard and maintain their privacy."</span></i></div>
<div><i><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></i></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">One
of the things
I notice is
that any talk
about actually
increasing
accuracy of
whois info-
via
enforcement-
is vigorously
opposed in
this group,
and it's
merely assumed
that people
will supply
better quality
data under the
new system. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Throughout
the document
it talks about
use-cases and
features
(whois
history,
reverse query,
etc), which
are indeed
identical to
the features
of the whois
aggregators of
current day.
Such a system
would replace
them. Will the
service
quality be as
good?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">On
page 63 it
gets into
thoughts on
who would be
"accredited"
to access the
gated whois
data. Every
proposed
scenario seems
to recognize
the resulting
system will
need to handle
a large query
volume from a
large number
of people, and
one proposes
accrediting
bodies which
may accredit
organizations
which may
accredit
individuals.
It even
proposes an
abuse handling
system which
is also
reminiscent in
structure to
how abuse is
handled
currently in
our domain
name system.
Many of these
proposed
schemes appear
to mimic the
ways that the
hosting
industry and
registrar
industry
operate, so we
can expect
that the
patterns of
abuse will be
equally
frequent,
especially if
higher quality
data is
supplied.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The
proposed
scenarios all
paint a
picture of
"gated" access
with very wide
gates, while
simultaneously
representing
to domain
purchasers
that their
data is safe
and privacy
protected. And
this is
supposed to
*reduce* the
total number
of privacy
violations?
This doesn't
even appeal to
me as a
consumer of
this data.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Whoever
sets up this
system also
stands to
inherit a lot
of money from
the
soon-to-be-defunct
whois
aggregation
industry. They
would
certainly win
our contract,
because we
would have no
choice. All
domain
reputation
services,
anti-spam,
security
research, etc,
efforts will
all need to
pay up. </span></div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">After
being supplied
with the above
document, I
also saw a
copy of a
rebuttal
written by a
company that
monitors
abusive
domains. I
strongly agree
with the
sentiments in
this document
and I do not
see evidence
that those
concerns have
received fair
consideration.
While I do not
see this new
gatekeeper as
an existential
threat, I do
see it as a
likely
degradation in
the utility i
do see from
whois. To be
clear, we do
not do any
business with
this company.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/input-to-ewg/attachments/20130823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommentsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementStructure-0001.pdf" target="_blank">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/
input-to-ewg/attachments/20130
823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt
ructure-0001.pdf</a></span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I
also found
John
Bambenek's
point in a
later thread
to be
interesting-
concentrating
WHOIS
knowledge
solely to one
organization
allows the
country it
resides in to
use it to
support its
intelligence
apparatus, for
example
monitoring
when its
espionage
domains are
queried for,
and targeting
researchers
that query
them (since
anonymous
querying will
be revoked).
Nation states
already use
domains in
operations so
this monopoly
is a perfect
strategic data
reserve. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">The fact that this system is pushed by privacy
advocates is
indeed ironic.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">None
of those
concerns
appear to have
been addressed
by this group
in any serious
capacity.
Before the
addition of
new members, I
don't think
many people
had the
backgrounds or
skillsets to
even
understand why
they are a
concern. But I
think this is
a discussion
worth having
at this point
in time for
this group.</span></div>
</div>
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_extra"><br clear="none">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote">On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 1:50
PM, Andrew
Sullivan <span>
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<br clear="none">
<span><br clear="none">
On Mon, Apr
24, 2017 at
07:25:47PM
+0200, Paul
Keating wrote:<br clear="none">
> Andrew,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Thank
you. That was
helpful.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> ""Given
this
registrant,
what other<br clear="none">
> domains
are
registered?"
is a solved
problem, and
has been since
the<br clear="none">
> early
2000s.²<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> This is
also traceable
via
alternative
means such as
consistencies
in<br clear="none">
> various
WHOIS fields
such as email,
address, name,
etc.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span>Well,
sort of. The
email,
address, and
name fields
are _user_<br clear="none">
supplied. So
they come from
the other
party to the
transaction.
The<br clear="none">
ROID is
assigned by
the registry
itself. So
once you have
a match,<br clear="none">
you know that
you are
looking at the
same object,
only the same<br clear="none">
object, and
all the same
object(s).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Email
addresses in
particular are
guaranteed
unique in the
world at<br clear="none">
any given time
(though not
guaranteed as
unique
identifiers
over<br clear="none">
time), so they
may be useful
for these
purposes.
Take it from
someone<br clear="none">
named "Andrew
Sullivan",
however, that
names are
pretty useless
as<br clear="none">
context-free
identifiers :)<br clear="none">
<span><br clear="none">
> In
reality
finding out
answers to
questions such
as<br clear="none">
> yours
(above)
requires
investigation
using a
plethora of
data.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span>To be
clear, finding
out the answer
to what I
(meant to)
pose(d)<br clear="none">
requires no
plethora of
data: it
requires a
single query
and access to<br clear="none">
the right
repository
(the
registry). In
some
theoretical
system, the<br clear="none">
correct
underlying
database query
would be
something like
this:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
SELECT
domain_roid,
domain_name
FROM domains
WHERE
registrant_roid
= ?;<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
and you put
the correct
ROID in where
the question
mark is, and
off<br clear="none">
you go. That
will give you
the list of
all the domain
names, and<br clear="none">
their relevant
ROIDs,
registered by
a given
registrant
contact. At<br clear="none">
least one
registry with
which I am
familiar once
had a WHOIS
feature<br clear="none">
that allowed
something
close to the
above, only it
would stop
after<br clear="none">
some number of
domains so as
not to return
too much
data. I think
the<br clear="none">
default was
therefore
LIMIT 50, but
I also think
the feature
was<br clear="none">
eventually
eliminated
about the time
that the ICANN
community
rejected<br clear="none">
IRIS as an
answer to "the
whois
problem".<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
What the above
will of course
not do is help
you in the
event Bob The<br clear="none">
Scammer has
created dozens
of different
contacts for
himself by
(say)<br clear="none">
registering
names through
many different
registrars. I
do not believe<br clear="none">
that any
registry is
going to
support such a
use at least
without<br clear="none">
access
controls,
because it can
be expensive
to answer such
things.<br clear="none">
So, what you
understood me
to be asking,
I think, is
the question I<br clear="none">
did _not_ ask:
given this
human being or
organization,
what other<br clear="none">
domains are
registered?"
That does
require a lot
of different
data,<br clear="none">
and it
requires
cross-organizational
searches, and
it requires
sussing<br clear="none">
out when
someone has
lied also.
Such research
is, I agree,
completely<br clear="none">
outside the
scope of what
any technical
system will
ever be able
to<br clear="none">
offer
reliably.<br clear="none">
<span><br clear="none">
> An entire<br clear="none">
> industry
exists for
this purpose
and I don¹t
think we
should be<br clear="none">
>
considering
replacing what
has already
been existing
in the cyber
security<br clear="none">
>
marketplace.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span>I do
not believe it
is this WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's<br clear="none">
commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br clear="none">
deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. In
this case,
however,<br clear="none">
that's not the
problem.
Linking data
in multiple
databases to a
given<br clear="none">
real-world
human being is
hard even in
systems
without
competition
and<br clear="none">
multiple
points of
access. It's
always going
to require
researchers<br clear="none">
for the domain
name system.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best regards.<br clear="none">
<div class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m_615767156484145872m_-1989214556801852688m_-7832141262075475097m_-293638207015338475HOEnZb">
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A<span class="m_-6028739752990097634m_-7057533978763232585m_7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m_615767156484145872m_-1989214556801852688m_-7832141262075475097HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
--<br clear="none">
Andrew
Sullivan<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br clear="none">
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-- <br clear="none">
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___<br clear="none">
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<pre class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_-6028739752990097634moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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