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<p>Below<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2017 4:31 PM, Chris Pelling
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div>Let me correct your points here :<br>
</div>
<div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
<div>1) Correct in that you can make your point, contracted
parties get a say.<br data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok, you can take that position. I'm happy to try to work with this
PDP process that is supposedly multistakeholder even though really
you are saying here only one stakeholder matters. Why not just shut
this down then?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div>2) Good, I am happy to note that you are happily putting
registrars under the bus here.<br data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I, in no way, have suggested that. And you know that. Are we really
going back to intentionally misrepresenting other people's points of
view?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div>3) Please enlighten us - what is the problem with logging
into a portal (to give an example) to see the data you need
(bear in mind we have not even discussed what data)<br
data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You're asking for a specific problem for a vague system that does
not exist. The first problem I see is, I don't think you can build
such a system. The second problem is, I don't think you can, in any
way, meaningfully assess what roles people should get aside of
"government" or "not". The third problem is, there is no likelihood
you could fully vet people into roles. The entire SSL/TLS regime
rests on one thing, verifying the requester of an encryption
certificate is authorized to get one for a domain. That entire
regime is a complete and unmitigated failure. You really think you
can do better?<br>
<br>
Now, beyond the argument of what you set out to do has a pretty low
likelihood of success...<br>
<br>
There are far too many criminals and far too few investigators. if
you think I can chuck automation out the window and make me revert
to manual checks is a case study in success, perhaps you should
spend some time figuring out what we actually DO. I mean, we're
hearing telling you and usually met with registrars telling us our
opinion doesn't matter and ignoring our messages.<br>
<br>
You will also be creating audit trails that, for instance, would say
X person is investigating Y intelligence agency for propaganda.
That puts them at FAR more risk than mere domain renewal spam as
surely those records are going to be available to governments. It
also allows, for instance, the collection of trade secrets. For
instance, I could use John Horton's whois/RDS searches to build his
client lists in a system you created and mandate everyone uses. Are
you prepared for that liability when it gets breached?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div>4) I'll tell you what John, I am not willing to even RISK
the point of being fined, as a business I cannot stop it, but,
I will do everything in my power to mitigate it.<br
data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Which is why we are here, working on these issues. If your position
is just eliminate WHOIS, why not go full hog and eliminate RDS too?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div>5) Excellent, show us then - as at the moment all I see
is the " I dont want it to change - I have easy access to what
I need" - but remember this has no cost to you at this time,
although what is decided here WILL have a cost to us.<br
data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You have not established it WILL have cost to you. I have
established it WILL have cost to society. I even used the very
specific example of election manipulation I put on this list this
very morning. In fact, I bet you I can sell the status quo to data
protection authorities and governments and that outcome will cost
you nothing.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
<div>I am all for listening to a "solution" that covers the
registrars or registries "a**" - bring it on. Although
remember you will need to do a little more than simply typing
in the word "jwhois" or "whois" into a terminal and actually
login to something as long as you have the rights too.<br
data-mce-bogus="1">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It sounds like you've already preordained the outcome. I have also
mentioned the very real risks investigators will have in such a
system.<br>
<br>
I am also convinced, as are my peers, that such a gate will very
quickly exclude us and treat us as "consumers" entitled to nothing.
Based on your tone and tenor, as well as others, I'm highly
confident that's the eventual outcome. It isn't making my life more
difficult in using whois. I believe you want to shut it down
entirely. Which, as a side effect, would let alleged Russian
election interference by much more successful per my example this
morning.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1384629026.196282.1493328680939.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
<div><br>
</div>
<div data-marker="__SIG_PRE__">Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Chris</div>
<br>
<hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__">
<div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><b>From: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>To: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Thursday, 27 April, 2017 22:16:28<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution regarding domain
registration data<br>
</div>
<br>
<div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__">
<p>1) Yes, I am aware of the registrar-only party some want to
have, but ICANN is a multistakeholder group and we get a
say.</p>
<p>2) We are aware of who gets fines.</p>
<p>3) You are saying gated access will work for us but seem to
ignore us when we tell you it won't.</p>
<p>4) You have not established that you WILL be fined.</p>
<p>5) We are also working on thinking outside the box.</p>
<p>The lack of toleration for other points of view from some
on this list has lead to this exact situation. You're free
to call it bickering, I'd like to call it "Defending my
point of view".<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2017 4:11 PM, Chris
Pelling wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:692614956.196159.1493327469192.JavaMail.zimbra@netearth.net">
<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color:
#000000">
<div>With risk of being removed from this WG, I will say
the following, this is not directed at anyone but the
group as a whole. I will also risk the wrath of
registrars/registries tomorrow (or tonight depending on
who reads this that is).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Today this group has done a great disservice, the
constant back and fourth of bickering - yes bickering
has lead to one person requesting to being removed,
someone who I do have a great respect for who thinks
outside the box to fix a solution like I do. Constant
badgering really is not going to get this group further
as the "people" (read for definition : Registrars) who
have to collect this information are the ones that will
ultimately get a fine, not "data harvesters" DomainTools
(Paul Keating) or LegitScript (their WHOIS collection
service - John Horton) or the "anti-abuse" people
(Allison Nixon / John Bambenek) but the registrar.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, gated access which would allow (as long as they
can pass all the requirements) access to the "thick"
whois data (to be determined mind you) would satisfy
Allison, Legitscript and John side of the table - it
might mean you have to login to something - but hey its
a simple extra step once allowed. If you feel you might
not be allowed then this could be your argument - if so,
explain. Remember gated access is not a harvesting
service and would I suggest be a GUI allowing access to
the record you are "investigating". <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The likes of data harvesters, well, sorry but whois
was not built for you to make money from, I do not pay
my bandwidth bills for you to waste my cash. If you
have a legitimate reason (and harvesting for sale which
is what it is isn’t one of them) then explain.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Personally a consideration might be to allow the RDS
system to hold archived records (maybe thin or maybe
thick) for legitimate use by the law enforcement peops
that require it.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a last note - I won't break my local law or any
other law that I am under (because of where I trade or
have office) to facilitate this group - you won't pay my
fine, or as in Turkey take my jail time - end of.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apologies if I have put anyone's nose out - no doubt
Ill find out shortly.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr id="zwchr">
<div><b>From: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>To: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Thursday, 27 April, 2017 21:39:25<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution regarding domain
registration data<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p>We can go back and forth but the US has data
protection laws... unless we are talking distribution
of credit card info, I'm hard pressed to think which
ones apply to the question of who is allowed to access
whois information.<br>
</p>
And yes, I'm sure the UN guy is busy, as we all are, but
the point remains, you had a discussion and you both
came away learning something I bet. And I bet, that
once exposed to us, they'd learn something different.
That was the only point I believe Allison intended to
make.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2017 3:36 PM, Ayden
Férdeline wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:rspEKGjtQ_J5SHGRLU4aoERwz0cZ9fYK7fq5gDrIoCMEfsic7SV79k1w5Cq9k7dVlx4soaxNbz7uIMb81rkc0ww4efBJeo5jwe3KwSKGFww=@ferdeline.com">
<div>Hi Allison,<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>I like to think that I keep busy, but I’m happy
to admit that the UN Special Rapporteur on the
Right to Privacy is a far, far busier man than I
am. I am very grateful that he, and the other Data
Protection Commissioners, found the time to engage
with us in Copenhagen given their many other
engagements.<br>
</li>
<li>The idea that it is only Europe which has
privacy laws has been widely debunked; three times
on this list just today. <br>
</li>
<li>The "gatekeeper" can only release information
that they hold. This is precisely why the only
data that should be collected is that which is
relevant and necessary for the purposes in which
it is processed, and retained for only so long as
is absolutely necessary.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>Best wishes,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block ">
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-user ">
<div>Ayden Férdeline<br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="protonmail_quote">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international
law enforcement association resolution regarding
domain registration data<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 6:47 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 17:47<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Stephanie Perrin <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank"><stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca></a><br>
</div>
<div>RDS PDP WG <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I'm sure everyone's schedules are quite busy,
and they will manage.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We need a proper legal authority here because
it's potentially falsely being presumed that the
use of WHOIS data is illegal and noncompliant in
the first place. We simply do not know if that
is a factual premise. We also need to take into
account laws other than the EU privacy laws, and
laws outside the EU. A number of exemptions
exist within these privacy laws and those people
throwing around the legal arguments accusing
this of being illegal don't seem to ever mention
that fact. We need an unbiased legal expert.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if a country is trying to enforce a law
that is deemed distasteful (violates human
rights, etc), and their registrant is located
within the country? does the gatekeeper have
grounds to deny them the ability to enforce
their own laws against their own people, and if
so when?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How does WHOIS play into other areas of
compliance, such as know-your-customer,
complying with sanctions, anti-money laundering,
HIPPAA, PCI, etc? Is complying to one law more
important than complying to another, if one had
to choose?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Will the gatekeeper comply with anti-trust
laws?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How does privacy law prohibit information
collection on registrants yet collect detailed
PII info on queriers and subject them to audit?
What happens if the gatekeeper is hacked into
for those audit logs? What happens if the
gatekeeper receives a national security letter?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All of these are legal questions that need to
be answered without bias and with full
understanding of the facts.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Stephanie
Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<p><span class="size"
style="font-size:undefinedpx"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Lucida
Grande">And we need to have a lengthy
discussion about precisely who that
legal expert might be. It appears
that many of our members are prepared
to reject the views of the Data
Protection Authorities themselves, who
took the time out of their
extraordinarily busy schedules to come
and speak with us in Copenhagen.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span class="size"
style="font-size:undefinedpx"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Lucida
Grande">Stephanie Perrin</span></span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-04-27 09:14, Gomes, Chuck via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div
class="m_-7524833532384583483WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">We as a WG
have not requested funds for a
legal expert, but I don’t know
what staff has built into the
Draft FY18 budget.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Marika –
Did the Policy Team build any
funds into the Draft FY18 budget
for legal experts?</span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Note that
this is a very time sensitive
issue because the comment period
on the Draft FY18 Operating Plan
and Budget ends tomorrow.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Lisa/Marika/Amr
– Please prepare a draft comment
on the Budget that the Leadership
Team or me as Chair could send on
Friday in this regard. If funds
have not been proposed for such
expenses, I think we should at a
minimum raise the issue in the
public comment forum even if there
is not time to propose specific
details.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Chuck</span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-7524833532384583483__MailEndCompose"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></a><br>
</p>
<div><span></span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></span></b><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-txt-link-abbreviated" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Keating<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April
27, 2017 7:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Shatan <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
target="_blank"><gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a>;
Volker Greimann <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
target="_blank"><vgreimann@key-systems.net></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
class="m_-7524833532384583483moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
international law enforcement
association resolution
regarding domain registration
data</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif">Has the WG requested
funds to retain a legal expert to
educate us on the actual laws at
issue?</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">From:
</span></span></span></b><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Greg Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, April
27, 2017 at 12:38 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Volker Greimann
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
international law enforcement
association resolution
regarding domain registration
data</span></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#b5c4df 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">We
also need to be very clear
about the limits of the
legal requirements of
applicable law, and the
various options available
for dealing with the law.
There's no need to
overcomply. Indeed it
would be quite
unreasonable to do so. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Just
as paying the lowest
calculable income tax is
perfectly legitimate, so
is complying with the law
in the least disruptive
way possible.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Greg</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-7524833532384583483_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeH"></a><b><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(0, 46, 98)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></span></span></b><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">C:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">917-816-6428</a><br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a><br>
</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank"><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(17, 85, 204)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></span></span></a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">On
Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:06
PM, Volker Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
<p><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">I
wish it were so
simple. "Doing harm"
is not necessary to be
in violation with
applicable law. Just
like jaywalking,
speeding on an empty
road or crossing a red
light carries a fine
regardless of whether
harm was done, privacy
law too does not care
about an actual harm.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">We
need to be very clear
about the legal
requirements when we
define the limits of
what can be done with
the data we collect,
and by whom. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Volker</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Am
26.04.2017 um 18:43
schrieb John Horton:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Greg,
well said. And
Tim, well said.
And I'll strongly
+1 Michael Hammer
as well. I agree
with the "do no
harm" philosophy
-- I'm not
convinced that
some of the
proposed changes
(e.g., those
outlined in the
EWG report)
wouldn't cause
more harm than the
existing,
admittedly
imperfect, system.
As I've said
before, the
importance of
tools like Reverse
Whois isn't only
direct -- it's
derivative as
well. (If you
enjoy the benefits
of those of us who
fight payment
fraud, online
abuse and other
sorts of
malfeasance, you
have reverse Whois
among other tools
to thank.) Privacy
laws in one part
of the world are a
factor we need to
be aware of, among
other factors. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 9:07
AM nathalie
coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">+1</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">Nathalie </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
12pt;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">On
Wednesday,
April 26, 2017
12:02 PM,
Victoria
Sheckler <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
12pt;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">+1<br>
<br>
Sent from my
iPhone</span></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
12pt;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
On Apr 26,
2017, at 8:56
AM, Greg
Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">Thanks
for weighing
in, Tim.
Since this is
a multi<span
style="text-decoration:
underline;">stakeholder</span> process,
everyone is
assumed to
come in with a
point of view,
so don't be
shy. At the
same time, if
stakeholders
cling
dogmatically
to their
points of view
the
multistakeholder
model doesn't
work.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">As
for being out
on a limb:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<ul
type="disc">
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0in;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">We
haven't
decided what
data will be
"private" and
for which
registrants
(e.g., based
on geography
or entity
status)</span><br>
</li>
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0in;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">We
haven't
decided there
will be
"gated" access
and what that
might mean,
both for
policy and
practicality</span><br>
</li>
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0in;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">The
question
shouldn't be
whether we
will be
"allowing
third parties
access to
harvest,
repackage and
republish that
data," but how
we should
allow this in
a way that
balances
various
concerns.
Eliminating
reverse Whois
and other such
services is
not a goal of
this Working
Group.</span><br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif">Our
job should be
to provide the
greatest
possible
access to the
best possible
data,
consistent
with
minimizing
risk under
reasonable
interpretations
of applicable
law. We need
to deal with
existing and
incoming
privacy laws
(and with
other laws) as
well, but not
in a
worshipful
manner;
instead it
should be in a
solution-oriented manner. This is not, after all, the Privacy Working
Group. I'll
+1 Michael
Hammer: <span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Rather
than starting
from a model
of justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Finally,
while our
purpose is not
to maintain
anyone's
economic
interest,
economic
interests may
well be
aligned with
policy
interests.
Assuming that
economic
interests are
at odds with
policy
interests is
just as
dangerous as
assuming that
policy
interests are
served by
maximizing
economic
interests.</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Verdana,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Greg</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
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style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span><br>
</p>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-7524833532384583483_m_-6028739752990097634_m_-70575339787632"></a><b><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></span></span></b><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">C:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">917-816-6428</a><br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a><br>
</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank"><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(17, 85, 204)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></span></span></a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 11:28
AM, Dotzero
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">dotzero@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Adding
to what Tim
and Allison
wrote.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">As
a starting
point, I've
had an account
with
DomainTools in
the past and
will likely
have one in
the future,
although I
don't
currently have
one. <br>
<br>
There are
other
organizations
and
individuals
which
consume/aggregate
whois data so
I don't think
that for the
purposes of
this
discussion the
focus should
be on just
DomainTools. I
know
researchers
and academics
who use this
data to
analyze all
sorts of
things. As has
been pointed
out, there are
all sorts of
folks staking
out positions
because of
their economic
(and other)
interests
without
necessarily
being
transparent
about those
interests. </span></span></span></p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">It
should be
remembered
that the
Internet is an
agglomeration
of many
networks and
resources,
some public
and some
private. At
the same time,
it is simply a
bunch of
technical
standards that
people and
organizations
have agreed to
use to
interact with
each other. In
many cases,
the ultimate
solution to
abuse is to
drop route. To
the extent
that good and
granular
information is
not readily
available,
regular
(innocent)
users may
suffer as
owners and
administrators
of resources
act to protect
those
resources and
their
legitimate
users from
abuse and
maliciousness.
The reality is
that most
users of the
internet
utilize a
relatively
small subset
of all the
resources out
there. For
some, a
service like
Facebook IS
the Internet.<br>
<br>
It may also
incite a
tendency
towards
returning to a
model of
walled
gardens. At
various points
I have heard
discussions
about the
balkanization
of the
internet, with
things like
separate
roots, etc.
People should
think very
carefully
about what
they are
asking for
because they
may not be
happy with it
if they
actually get
it.</span></span></span></p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Rather
than starting
from a model
of justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Michael
Hammer </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 10:27
AM, allison
nixon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Thank
you for your
email Tim. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Full
disclosure(because I believe in being transparent about this sort of
thing), we do
business with
Domaintools
and use their
tools to
consume whois
data.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">"i'll
close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the point
of the WG is
not to protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion."</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">I
will however
disagree
vehemently
with you on
this point. It
is obvious
that many of
the arguments
to cut off
anonymous
querying to
WHOIS data are
economically
motivated.
Financial
concerns are
cited numerous
times in
approved
documents. I
also believe
the "vetting"
process is
likely to
become a new
revenue stream
for someone as
well. A
revenue stream
with HIGHLY
questionable
privacy
value-add. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Every
dollar of
income for the
Domaintools
company and
others like it
come from
their clients,
who see a
multiplier of
value from it.
That means for
every dollar
spent on the
entire whois
aggregator
industry means
that a much
larger amount
of money is
saved through
prevented
harms like
fraud, abuse,
and even fake
medications
which kill
people.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">I
think it is
extremely
important to
identify what
critical
systems rely
on whois
(either
directly or
downstream),
and determine
if we are
ready to give
up the utility
of these
systems. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">We
also need to
identify the
value of the
ability to
anonymously
query whois
and what that
loss of
privacy will
mean as well.
While I
obviously do
not make many
queries
anonymously(although
our vendor has
their own
privacy
policy), I
understand
this is
important
especially to
those
researching
more dangerous
actors. Why
would
$_COUNTRY
dissidents
want to query
domains when
their
opponents
would surely
be hacking
into the audit
logs for this?</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">On
Apr 25, 2017
11:41 PM,
"Chen, Tim"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">tim@domaintools.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">"And
I hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine."</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">happy
to do so.
DomainTools is
clearly a
stakeholder in
this debate.
and we have a
fair amount of
experience
around the
challenges,
benefits and
risks of whois
data
aggregation at
scale. </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">from
the beginning
of this
EWG/RDS idea
we've stood
down bc i
didn't believe
our opinion
would be seen
as
objective-enough
given our line
of business.
but it is
apparent to me
having
followed this
debate for
many weeks
now, that this
is a working
group of
individuals
who all bring
their own
biases into
the debate.
whether they
care to admit
that to
themselves or
not. so we
might as well
wade in too.
bc I think
our experience
is very
relevant to
the
discussion.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">i'll
do my best to
be as
objective as I
can, as a
domain
registrant
myself and as
an informed
industry
participant.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">since
our experience
is working
with security
minded
organizations,
that is the
context with
which I will
comment. </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">since
this is an
ICANN working
group, I start
with the ICANN
mission
statement
around the
security and
stability of
the DNS. I
find myself
wanting to fit
this debate to
that as the
north star. i
do not see the
RDS as purpose
driven to fit
the GDPR or
any
region-specific
legal
resolution.
but I do see
those as
important
inputs to our
discussion.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">from
a security
perspective,
my experience
is that the
benefits of
the current
Whois model,
taken with
this lens, far
outweigh the
costs. again,
I can only
speak from my
experience
here at
DomainTools,
and obviously
under the
current Whois
regime. This
is not to say
it cannot be
improved.
From a data
accuracy
perspective
alone there is
enormous room
for
improvement as
I think we can
all agree.
every day I
see the
tangible
benefits to
security
interests,
which for the
most part are
"doing good",
from the work
that we do.
when I
compare that
to the
complaints
that we get bc
"my PII is
visible in
your data",
it's not even
close by my
value
barometer
(which my
differ from
others').
this is
relevant bc
any future
solution will
be imperfect
as I have
mentioned
before. as
Allison and
others point
out we need to
measure the
harm done by
any new system
that may seek
to solve one
problem
(privacy?) and
inadvertently
create many
more. since
this group is
fond of
analogies I'll
contribute one
from the
medical oath
(not sure if
this is just
U.S.) "first,
do no harm".</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">i'll
close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the
point of the
WG is not to
protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion.
but I also
think "it's
too expensive"
or "it's too
hard" are weak
and dangerous
excuses when
dealing with
an issue like
this which has
enormous and
far reaching
consequences
for the very
mission of
ICANN around
the security
and stability
of our
internet.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Tim</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 3:50
PM, allison
nixon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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1.0pt;padding:0in
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<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks
for the
documentation
in your
earlier email.
While I
understand
that's how
things are
supposed to
work in
theory, it's
not
implemented
very widely,
and unless
there is
enforcement,
then it's
unlikely to be
useful at all.
</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">"<span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">as
a given, we
put ourselves
in a certain
position in
terms of the
actions we can
and cannot
recommend. We
can make
similar
statements
focused on
registry
operators,
registrars, or
any other
stakeholder in
this space. If
we all
approach this
WG's task with
the goal of
not changing
anything,
we're all just
wasting our
time."</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">There
are things
that people
would be
willing to
change about
WHOIS. Changes
purely
relating to
the data
format would
not be as
controversial.
Changing to
that RDAP json
format would
probably be an
agreeable
point to most
here.</span></span></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">There
are two
different
major points
of contention
here. The
first is the
data format,
second is the
creation of a
new monopoly
and ceding
power to it.
By monopoly I
mean- who are
the
gatekeepers of
"gated"
access? Will
it avoid all
of the
problems that
monopolies are
historically
prone to? Who
will pay them?
It seems like
a massive leap
of faith to
commit to this
without
knowing who we
are making the
commitment to.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">"I
do not believe
it is this
WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br>
deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. "</span>
</span></span></span></p>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">From
my
understanding
of past ICANN
working
groups,
registrars
have fought
against issues
that would
have increased
their costs.
And the
destruction of
useful WHOIS
results(or
becoming
beholden to
some new
monopoly)
stand to incur
far more costs
for far larger
industries.
So this
shouldn't
surprise you.
If those
economic
concerns are
not valid then
I question why
the economic
concerns of
registrars are
valid.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">If
entire
industries are
built around a
feature you
would consider
a
"deficiency",
then your
opinion may
solely be your
own. And I
hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">"Not trying
to hamstring
the WG. Just
asking if this
is not
something that
has already
been solved.."</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Hi
Paul,</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">It's
an interesting
thought. This
document was
recommended to
me as one that
was approved
in the past by
the working
group that
outlined what
the resulting
system might
look like. I'm
still learning
and reading
about these
working groups
and what they
do, and this
document is
massive.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-06jun14-en.pdf"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/syste
m/files/files/final-report-06j un14-en.pdf</a></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">In
the document,
it says: <i>"Central
to the remit
of the EWG is
the question
of how to
design a
system that
increases the
accuracy of
the data
collected
while also
offering
protections
for those
Registrants seeking
to guard and
maintain their
privacy."</i></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">One
of the things
I notice is
that any talk
about actually
increasing
accuracy of
whois info-
via
enforcement-
is vigorously
opposed in
this group,
and it's
merely assumed
that people
will supply
better quality
data under the
new system. </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Throughout
the document
it talks about
use-cases and
features
(whois
history,
reverse query,
etc), which
are indeed
identical to
the features
of the whois
aggregators of
current day.
Such a system
would replace
them. Will the
service
quality be as
good?</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">On
page 63 it
gets into
thoughts on
who would be
"accredited"
to access the
gated whois
data. Every
proposed
scenario seems
to recognize
the resulting
system will
need to handle
a large query
volume from a
large number
of people, and
one proposes
accrediting
bodies which
may accredit
organizations
which may
accredit
individuals.
It even
proposes an
abuse handling
system which
is also
reminiscent in
structure to
how abuse is
handled
currently in
our domain
name system.
Many of these
proposed
schemes appear
to mimic the
ways that the
hosting
industry and
registrar
industry
operate, so we
can expect
that the
patterns of
abuse will be
equally
frequent,
especially if
higher quality
data is
supplied.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">The
proposed
scenarios all
paint a
picture of
"gated" access
with very wide
gates, while
simultaneously
representing
to domain
purchasers
that their
data is safe
and privacy
protected. And
this is
supposed to
*reduce* the
total number
of privacy
violations?
This doesn't
even appeal to
me as a
consumer of
this data.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">Whoever
sets up this
system also
stands to
inherit a lot
of money from
the
soon-to-be-defunct
whois
aggregation
industry. They
would
certainly win
our contract,
because we
would have no
choice. All
domain
reputation
services,
anti-spam,
security
research, etc,
efforts will
all need to
pay up. </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">After
being supplied
with the above
document, I
also saw a
copy of a
rebuttal
written by a
company that
monitors
abusive
domains. I
strongly agree
with the
sentiments in
this document
and I do not
see evidence
that those
concerns have
received fair
consideration.
While I do not
see this new
gatekeeper as
an existential
threat, I do
see it as a
likely
degradation in
the utility i
do see from
whois. To be
clear, we do
not do any
business with
this company.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
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class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/input-to-ewg/attachments/20130823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommentsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementStructure-0001.pdf"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/
input-to-ewg/attachments/20130
823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt
ructure-0001.pdf</a></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">I
also found
John
Bambenek's
point in a
later thread
to be
interesting-
concentrating
WHOIS
knowledge
solely to one
organization
allows the
country it
resides in to
use it to
support its
intelligence
apparatus, for
example
monitoring
when its
espionage
domains are
queried for,
and targeting
researchers
that query
them (since
anonymous
querying will
be revoked).
Nation states
already use
domains in
operations so
this monopoly
is a perfect
strategic data
reserve. The
fact that this
system is
pushed by
privacy
advocates is
indeed ironic.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">None
of those
concerns
appear to have
been addressed
by this group
in any serious
capacity.
Before the
addition of
new members, I
don't think
many people
had the
backgrounds or
skillsets to
even
understand why
they are a
concern. But I
think this is
a discussion
worth having
at this point
in time for
this group.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 1:50
PM, Andrew
Sullivan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">Hi,<br>
<br>
On Mon, Apr
24, 2017 at
07:25:47PM
+0200, Paul
Keating wrote:<br>
> Andrew,<br>
><br>
> Thank
you. That was
helpful.<br>
><br>
> ""Given
this
registrant,
what other<br>
> domains
are
registered?"
is a solved
problem, and
has been since
the<br>
> early
2000s.²<br>
><br>
> This is
also traceable
via
alternative
means such as
consistencies
in<br>
> various
WHOIS fields
such as email,
address, name,
etc.<br>
<br>
Well, sort
of. The
email,
address, and
name fields
are _user_<br>
supplied. So
they come from
the other
party to the
transaction.
The<br>
ROID is
assigned by
the registry
itself. So
once you have
a match,<br>
you know that
you are
looking at the
same object,
only the same<br>
object, and
all the same
object(s).<br>
<br>
Email
addresses in
particular are
guaranteed
unique in the
world at<br>
any given time
(though not
guaranteed as
unique
identifiers
over<br>
time), so they
may be useful
for these
purposes.
Take it from
someone<br>
named "Andrew
Sullivan",
however, that
names are
pretty useless
as<br>
context-free
identifiers :)<br>
<br>
> In
reality
finding out
answers to
questions such
as<br>
> yours
(above)
requires
investigation
using a
plethora of
data.<br>
<br>
To be clear,
finding out
the answer to
what I (meant
to) pose(d)<br>
requires no
plethora of
data: it
requires a
single query
and access to<br>
the right
repository
(the
registry). In
some
theoretical
system, the<br>
correct
underlying
database query
would be
something like
this:<br>
<br>
SELECT
domain_roid,
domain_name
FROM domains
WHERE
registrant_roid
= ?;<br>
<br>
and you put
the correct
ROID in where
the question
mark is, and
off<br>
you go. That
will give you
the list of
all the domain
names, and<br>
their relevant
ROIDs,
registered by
a given
registrant
contact. At<br>
least one
registry with
which I am
familiar once
had a WHOIS
feature<br>
that allowed
something
close to the
above, only it
would stop
after<br>
some number of
domains so as
not to return
too much
data. I think
the<br>
default was
therefore
LIMIT 50, but
I also think
the feature
was<br>
eventually
eliminated
about the time
that the ICANN
community
rejected<br>
IRIS as an
answer to "the
whois
problem".<br>
<br>
What the above
will of course
not do is help
you in the
event Bob The<br>
Scammer has
created dozens
of different
contacts for
himself by
(say)<br>
registering
names through
many different
registrars. I
do not believe<br>
that any
registry is
going to
support such a
use at least
without<br>
access
controls,
because it can
be expensive
to answer such
things.<br>
So, what you
understood me
to be asking,
I think, is
the question I<br>
did _not_ ask:
given this
human being or
organization,
what other<br>
domains are
registered?"
That does
require a lot
of different
data,<br>
and it
requires
cross-organizational
searches, and
it requires
sussing<br>
out when
someone has
lied also.
Such research
is, I agree,
completely<br>
outside the
scope of what
any technical
system will
ever be able
to<br>
offer
reliably.<br>
<br>
> An entire<br>
> industry
exists for
this purpose
and I don¹t
think we
should be<br>
>
considering
replacing what
has already
been existing
in the cyber
security<br>
>
marketplace.<br>
<br>
I do not
believe it is
this WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's<br>
commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br>
deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. In
this case,
however,<br>
that's not the
problem.
Linking data
in multiple
databases to a
given<br>
real-world
human being is
hard even in
systems
without
competition
and<br>
multiple
points of
access. It's
always going
to require
researchers<br>
for the domain
name system.<br>
<br>
Best regards.</span></span></span></p>
<div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
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sans-serif"><br>
A</span></span><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(136, 136, 136)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">--</span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">Andrew
Sullivan</span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">______________________________
_________________</span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="m_-7524833532384583483m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span></p>
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</span></span><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"></span></span></span></p>
<div>
<p
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class="font"
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sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">--
</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">______________________________
___<br>
Note to self:
Pillage BEFORE
burning.</span></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
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class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
______________________________ _________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
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target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:
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style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">______________________________
_________________</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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class="font"
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</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
______________________________ _________________</span></span></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
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<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
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<div>
<blockquote
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<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/
listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:
12pt;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
</span></span></span></p>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">
</span></span></span></p>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">-- </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Mit freundlichen Grüßen,</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Volker A. Greimann</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">- Rechtsabteilung -</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Key-Systems GmbH</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Im Oberen Werk 1</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">66386 St. Ingbert</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">--------------------------------------------</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Best regards,</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Volker A. Greimann</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">- legal department -</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Key-Systems GmbH</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Im Oberen Werk 1</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">66386 St. Ingbert</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a></span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">CEO: Alexander Siffrin</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black">This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.</span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
<pre><span class="colour" style="color:black"> </span>
</pre>
</div>
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<div class="gmail_signature">
<div>_________________________________ </div>
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