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<p>John Horton's comments once again underline that while ICANN's
policies may help set the context for how some data privacy and
protection laws operate (for example, by not collecting data) its
positions on data protection and privacy cannot contravene
national laws. What can be done here? What is a viable role for
ICANN? Maybe, just maybe, benefiting from lessons learned
elsewhere would be useful. <br>
</p>
<p>I look to the International Labour Organization (ILO) which
operates as a more tightly structured multistakeholder
organization, with government, labour, and industry
representatives who do in fact represent their constituencies in a
federated and accountable process. What does the ILO do that we
just might learn something from? First, it makes no policy. Here,
for ICANN, the issue is that ICANN can make no policy outside its
DNS remit. Second, the ILO, in its prime concern with "decent
work", recognizes and encourages multilateral agreements (rights
of workers by sector) as the appropriate policy venue, rather than
just a myriad of national policies. How does it do that? It
operates as a sort of multistakeholder think tank and policy
deliberation venue working up the analysis, and drafting
multilateral (and national) proposals to be feed into multilateral
and national policy processes. <br>
</p>
<p>Many of the issues that plague ICANN, issues such as
staff/stakeholder roles in policy development, the places of
academics and experts in the process, the tensions with
multilateral institutions, are much less present within the ILO's
work. It is of course not without its conflicts but they are less
about who does what or who represents whom, and more about what
policy should be, especially when considered by others at the
binding multilateral and national levels.</p>
<p>I realize that this looks to be a radically different conception
of how ICANN does what it does, but it is in fact not radical at
all. ICANN would continue its internal multistakeholder WG-PDP
process focused on what is within its remit. ICANN could play a
multistakeholder think tank/policy deliberation role to advise
others (multilateral, national) in a process that has multiple
advantages. <br>
</p>
<p>In the case of this rds-pdp-wg that would make the work easier by
partitioning many of the issues and concerns into two different
work agendas. <br>
</p>
<p>Is there any likelihood that ICANN could move in this direction?
Starting with momentum from inside ICANN, I do not know, but it
looks doubtful. Starting from outside ICANN, with pressure from
the wider Internet governance venue, I would predict certainty to
part of that outcome. I predict that a ring fence around ICANN,
with ICANN operating mainly looking inward to policy within its
remit. What is uncertain is whether or not ICANN will play a
constructive think-tank policy deliberation role in helping shape
multilateral and national policy. What is certain is that there
will be multilateral and national policy, and hopefully, ICANN
proper will figure out how to play a constructive role there,
something that goes well beyond bits-and-pieces of ICANN's various
component parts engaged in the various IGF's, WSIS, and other
Internet ecosystem deliberative venues. This is why I look to
parts of the ILO approach as food for thought and a source of
lessons learned. <br>
</p>
<p>Sam Lanfranco, <br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i><font color="#660000">On 4/27/2017
8:59 AM, John Horton wrote:<br>
</font></i></div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutQr+_tk+yMEeR8YJjWy69C0gKTh_rdG9YrGJvsoMO4Bw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><i><font color="#660000">But you agree none of those
declarations or guidelines are legally binding, yes? Aside
from actual laws or regulations (which might incorporate
them by reference) obviously, but the UN doesn't make
binding laws. </font></i></div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 8:52 AM Ayden Férdeline <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>I will paraphrase what Joseph Cannataci, the United
Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Privacy, told
the Working Group in Copenhagen. Privacy should not be
seen as a European concept, or only seen within the prism
of the EU’s General Data Protection Regulation. There is
also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Convention
108, the OECD’s guidelines, APEC’s privacy guidelines, and
national data protection laws from over 120 countries
around the globe which are built on similar principles.
There are more countries with data protection laws than
without them.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="m_5557760971739383483protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Ayden Férdeline<br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_5557760971739383483protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="m_5557760971739383483protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution regarding domain
registration data<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="m_5557760971739383483protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 1:23 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 12:23<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com"
target="_blank">john.horton@legitscript.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden Férdeline <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Paul Keating <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Paul@law.es" target="_blank">Paul@law.es</a>>,
RDS PDP WG <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)"
class="gmail_default">
<div class="gmail_default">Well, on that note, let me
propose a solution to consider. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Volker and others have
pointed out that the EU has some legal requirements
pertaining to privacy. As far as I can tell, these
generally don't exist elsewhere. (That's not to say
"nowhere," but it's the exception, not the rule.)
Let's stipulate, for the sake of argument, that
registrars in those countries have to adhere to
those laws. However, the purpose of privacy laws in
Germany, France or Sweden are to protect the
citizens of those countries -- not registrants in
other countries. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">As a trade-off, it seems
reasonable to me to explore a solution where EU
registrars agree to forego accepting domain name
registrations from outside their own jurisdiction.
We can then have a bi-furcated system -- this should
only apply to registrants using the domain name for
non-commercial reasons, by the way, since the
privacy laws only apply to individuals, not
corporations -- where, say, a German citizen can
register with Key-Systems (for example) and enjoy
whatever data protections Key-Systems feels that it
needs to implement. (Volker, I'm not picking on you
here, I'm just using you as an EU-based example.)
It's incredibly easy to implement technically: just
restrict the available countries in the drop-down
menu during registration to a single country. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">After all, as a US citizen,
why should I -- or a Chinese citizen, or a Brazilian
citizen -- have the right to avail myself of the
privacy protections afforded by the German
government to German citizens? Those aren't meant
for me. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">And, after all, why should
privacy protections that apply to a minority of the
world's population force a global change everywhere?<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I'd be interested to hear
from registrars whether, in exchange for being able
to implement rigorous privacy protections for domain
names used for non-commercial purposes, they would
be willing to forego accepting registrations from
outside of their own jurisdiction (or, perhaps, the
EU). This would allow Volker and others to comply
with their own laws but in a minimally disruptive
way. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"
class="m_5557760971739383483gmail_signature">
<div>
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<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President and
CEO,
LegitScript</span></span></div>
<div>
<div><img
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:45 AM, Ayden Férdeline
<span><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>re: the repeated
suggestion of “opt in registration for public
WHOIS”. It bears repeating what
was said to us by the Data Protection
Commissioners in Copenhagen; consent is
not a waiver for disproportionate or unlawful
processing. You cannot ask a data
subject to consent to something which is unlawful.
<span class="m_5557760971739383483HOEnZb"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:#888888"><br>
<br>
Ayden Férdeline</span></span></div>
<span class="m_5557760971739383483HOEnZb"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:#888888">
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span></span>
<blockquote
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530protonmail_quote"
type="cite"><span>
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
international law enforcement association
resolution regarding domain registration data<br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div class="m_5557760971739383483h5">
<div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 12:36 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 11:36<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Paul@law.es" rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Paul@law.es</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>>,
Greg Shatan <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>,
Volker Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
</div>
<div>RDS PDP WG <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">"</span><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:-webkit-standard">Privacy
laws in one part of the world are a
factor we need to be aware of, among
other factors. </span></span></span>“<br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:-webkit-standard"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(255,254,254)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:-webkit-standard">This
seems to be the entire driving force
behind considering a more restrictive
(gated) access to WHOIS. If there are
other reasons please let me know.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(255,254,254)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:-webkit-standard"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(254,253,253)">Also, I
have yet to see any legal authority that
precludes:</span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(254,253,253)"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(253,252,252)">Opt
in registration for public WHOIS</span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(252,251,251)">For
those not desiring a public WHOIS record,
then the ability to use a recognized
privacy service so as to “anchor" the
registration of the domain</span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(252,251,251)"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:rgb(251,249,249)">If
one does exist can someone point me to
the </span>link?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A balancing of needs is important here.
Seems to me that the competing interests
here are not simply privacy vs. public
access. There are the private interests of
those who regularly use the current WHOIS
data set for any variety of purposes
including:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Security research and prevention<br>
</div>
<div>Law enforcement<br>
</div>
<div>Highjacking recovery<br>
</div>
<div>Private transactions (confirmation of
current and historical ownership)<br>
</div>
<div>Lending and financing transactions
(confirmation of ownership to support
security interests)<br>
</div>
<div>Providing WHOIS and other data services
to others<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</div>
<span class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483font"
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:14px">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
none;BORDER-LEFT:medium
none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df
1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium
none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<div><b>From: </b> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Michele Blacknight <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Thursday, April
27, 2017 at 9:21 AM<br>
</div>
<div><b>To: </b> Greg Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>,
Volker Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
</div>
<div><b>Cc: </b> RDS PDP WG <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution
regarding domain registration data<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5
solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5">
<div>
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-GB">
<div
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Greg</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">As a
business owner I need to
make sure that I’m not
exposing myself or the
company to unnecessary risk.</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">While
big corporations might be
comfortable spending large
amounts of money on
“creative” tax arrangements
that isn’t really an option
for smaller companies like
ourselves.</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Regards</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"><br>
Michele</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">--</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Mr
Michele Neylon</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Blacknight
Solutions</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Hosting,
Colocation & Domains</span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.blacknight.com/"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">https://www.blacknight.com/</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://blacknight.blog/"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://blacknight.blog/</span></a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://ceo.hosting/"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483colour"
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://ceo.hosting/</span></a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Intl.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+353599183072"
href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203072"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">+353 (0)
59 9183072</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Direct
Dial: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+353599183090"
href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203090"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">+353
(0)59 9183090</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">-------------------------------</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Blacknight
Internet Solutions Ltd,
Unit 12A,Barrowside
Business Park,Sleaty</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93
X265,</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt">Ireland
Company No.: 370845</span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:
</span></b><span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Greg Shatan
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday 26
April 2017 at 23:38<br>
<b>To: </b>Volker
Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
international law
enforcement association
resolution regarding
domain registration data</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>We
also need to be very
clear about the limits
of the legal
requirements of
applicable law, and the
various options
available for dealing
with the law. There's
no need to overcomply.
Indeed it would be quite
unreasonable to do so. </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Just
as paying the lowest
calculable income tax is
perfectly legitimate, so
is complying with the
law in the least
disruptive way possible.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Greg</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_5557760971739383483_m_-8794609955022991530_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeH"></a><b><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">Greg Shatan<br>
</span></b><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">C: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+19178166428" href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">917-816-6428</a><br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: <a moz-do-not-send="true" value="+16468459428"
href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a><br>
</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank"><span class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed,
Apr 26, 2017 at 1:06 PM,
Volker Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p>I wish it were so
simple. "Doing harm"
is not necessary to be
in violation with
applicable law. Just
like jaywalking,
speeding on an empty
road or crossing a red
light carries a fine
regardless of whether
harm was done, privacy
law too does not care
about an actual harm.<br>
</p>
<p>We need to be very
clear about the legal
requirements when we
define the limits of
what can be done with
the data we collect,
and by whom.<br>
</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am
26.04.2017 um 18:43
schrieb John Horton:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greg,
well said. And
Tim, well said.
And I'll strongly
+1 Michael Hammer
as well. I agree
with the "do no
harm" philosophy
-- I'm not
convinced that
some of the
proposed changes
(e.g., those
outlined in the
EWG report)
wouldn't cause
more harm than the
existing,
admittedly
imperfect, system.
As I've said
before, the
importance of
tools like Reverse
Whois isn't only
direct -- it's
derivative as
well. (If you
enjoy the benefits
of those of us who
fight payment
fraud, online
abuse and other
sorts of
malfeasance, you
have reverse Whois
among other tools
to thank.) Privacy
laws in one part
of the world are a
factor we need to
be aware of, among
other factors. <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 9:07
AM nathalie
coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">+1</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">Nathalie </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">On Wednesday,
April 26, 2017
12:02 PM,
Victoria
Sheckler <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>>
wrote:</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>+1<br>
<br>
Sent from my
iPhone</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span><br>
On Apr 26,
2017, at 8:56
AM, Greg
Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Thanks
for weighing
in, Tim.
Since this is
a multi<u>stakeholder</u> process,
everyone is
assumed to
come in with a
point of view,
so don't be
shy. At the
same time, if
stakeholders
cling
dogmatically
to their
points of view
the
multistakeholder
model doesn't
work.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>As
for being out
on a limb:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<ul
type="disc">
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0cm;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span>We haven't decided what data will be "private"
and for which
registrants
(e.g., based
on geography
or entity
status)</span><br>
</li>
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0cm;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span>We haven't decided there will be "gated" access
and what that
might mean,
both for
policy and
practicality</span><br>
</li>
<li
style="color:black;margin-left:0cm;background:white"
class="MsoNormal"><span>The question shouldn't be whether we will be
"allowing
third parties
access to
harvest,
repackage and
republish that
data," but how
we should
allow this in
a way that
balances
various
concerns.
Eliminating
reverse Whois
and other such
services is
not a goal of
this Working
Group.</span><br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Our
job should be
to provide the
greatest
possible
access to the
best possible
data,
consistent
with
minimizing
risk under
reasonable
interpretations
of applicable
law. We need
to deal with
existing and
incoming
privacy laws
(and with
other laws) as
well, but not
in a
worshipful
manner;
instead it
should be in a
solution-oriented manner. This is not, after all, the Privacy Working
Group. I'll
+1 Michael
Hammer: </span><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Rather than
starting from
a model of
justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Finally, while
our purpose is
not to
maintain
anyone's
economic
interest,
economic
interests may
well be
aligned with
policy
interests.
Assuming that
economic
interests are
at odds with
policy
interests is
just as
dangerous as
assuming that
policy
interests are
served by
maximizing
economic
interests.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Greg</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_5557760971739383483_m_-8794609955022991530_m_-6028739752990097634_m_-70575339787632"></a><b><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">Greg Shatan<br>
</span></b><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">C: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">917-816-6428</a><br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a><br>
</span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 11:28
AM, Dotzero
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">dotzero@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Adding
to what Tim
and Allison
wrote.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>As
a starting
point, I've
had an account
with
DomainTools in
the past and
will likely
have one in
the future,
although I
don't
currently have
one. <br>
<br>
There are
other
organizations
and
individuals
which
consume/aggregate
whois data so
I don't think
that for the
purposes of
this
discussion the
focus should
be on just
DomainTools. I
know
researchers
and academics
who use this
data to
analyze all
sorts of
things. As has
been pointed
out, there are
all sorts of
folks staking
out positions
because of
their economic
(and other)
interests
without
necessarily
being
transparent
about those
interests.</span></span></p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>It
should be
remembered
that the
Internet is an
agglomeration
of many
networks and
resources,
some public
and some
private. At
the same time,
it is simply a
bunch of
technical
standards that
people and
organizations
have agreed to
use to
interact with
each other. In
many cases,
the ultimate
solution to
abuse is to
drop route. To
the extent
that good and
granular
information is
not readily
available,
regular
(innocent)
users may
suffer as
owners and
administrators
of resources
act to protect
those
resources and
their
legitimate
users from
abuse and
maliciousness.
The reality is
that most
users of the
internet
utilize a
relatively
small subset
of all the
resources out
there. For
some, a
service like
Facebook IS
the Internet.<br>
<br>
It may also
incite a
tendency
towards
returning to a
model of
walled
gardens. At
various points
I have heard
discussions
about the
balkanization
of the
internet, with
things like
separate
roots, etc.
People should
think very
carefully
about what
they are
asking for
because they
may not be
happy with it
if they
actually get
it.</span></span></p>
</div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Rather
than starting
from a model
of justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Michael
Hammer</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>On
Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 10:27
AM, allison
nixon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Thank
you for your
email Tim.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Full
disclosure(because I believe in being transparent about this sort of
thing), we do
business with
Domaintools
and use their
tools to
consume whois
data.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>"i'll
close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the point
of the WG is
not to protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion."</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>I
will however
disagree
vehemently
with you on
this point. It
is obvious
that many of
the arguments
to cut off
anonymous
querying to
WHOIS data are
economically
motivated.
Financial
concerns are
cited numerous
times in
approved
documents. I
also believe
the "vetting"
process is
likely to
become a new
revenue stream
for someone as
well. A
revenue stream
with HIGHLY
questionable
privacy
value-add.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Every
dollar of
income for the
Domaintools
company and
others like it
come from
their clients,
who see a
multiplier of
value from it.
That means for
every dollar
spent on the
entire whois
aggregator
industry means
that a much
larger amount
of money is
saved through
prevented
harms like
fraud, abuse,
and even fake
medications
which kill
people.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>I
think it is
extremely
important to
identify what
critical
systems rely
on whois
(either
directly or
downstream),
and determine
if we are
ready to give
up the utility
of these
systems.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>We
also need to
identify the
value of the
ability to
anonymously
query whois
and what that
loss of
privacy will
mean as well.
While I
obviously do
not make many
queries
anonymously(although
our vendor has
their own
privacy
policy), I
understand
this is
important
especially to
those
researching
more dangerous
actors. Why
would
$_COUNTRY
dissidents
want to query
domains when
their
opponents
would surely
be hacking
into the audit
logs for this?</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>On
Apr 25, 2017
11:41 PM,
"Chen, Tim"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">tim@domaintools.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">"And I hope
more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine."</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">happy to do
so.
DomainTools is
clearly a
stakeholder in
this debate.
and we have a
fair amount of
experience
around the
challenges,
benefits and
risks of whois
data
aggregation at
scale. </span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">from the
beginning of
this EWG/RDS
idea we've
stood down bc
i didn't
believe our
opinion would
be seen as
objective-enough
given our line
of business.
but it is
apparent to me
having
followed this
debate for
many weeks
now, that this
is a working
group of
individuals
who all bring
their own
biases into
the debate.
whether they
care to admit
that to
themselves or
not. so we
might as well
wade in too.
bc I think
our experience
is very
relevant to
the
discussion.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">i'll do my
best to be as
objective as I
can, as a
domain
registrant
myself and as
an informed
industry
participant.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">since our
experience is
working with
security
minded
organizations,
that is the
context with
which I will
comment. </span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">since this is
an ICANN
working group,
I start with
the ICANN
mission
statement
around the
security and
stability of
the DNS. I
find myself
wanting to fit
this debate to
that as the
north star. i
do not see the
RDS as purpose
driven to fit
the GDPR or
any
region-specific
legal
resolution.
but I do see
those as
important
inputs to our
discussion.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">from a
security
perspective,
my experience
is that the
benefits of
the current
Whois model,
taken with
this lens, far
outweigh the
costs. again,
I can only
speak from my
experience
here at
DomainTools,
and obviously
under the
current Whois
regime. This
is not to say
it cannot be
improved.
From a data
accuracy
perspective
alone there is
enormous room
for
improvement as
I think we can
all agree.
every day I
see the
tangible
benefits to
security
interests,
which for the
most part are
"doing good",
from the work
that we do.
when I
compare that
to the
complaints
that we get bc
"my PII is
visible in
your data",
it's not even
close by my
value
barometer
(which my
differ from
others').
this is
relevant bc
any future
solution will
be imperfect
as I have
mentioned
before. as
Allison and
others point
out we need to
measure the
harm done by
any new system
that may seek
to solve one
problem
(privacy?) and
inadvertently
create many
more. since
this group is
fond of
analogies I'll
contribute one
from the
medical oath
(not sure if
this is just
U.S.) "first,
do no harm".</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">i'll close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the
point of the
WG is not to
protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion.
but I also
think "it's
too expensive"
or "it's too
hard" are weak
and dangerous
excuses when
dealing with
an issue like
this which has
enormous and
far reaching
consequences
for the very
mission of
ICANN around
the security
and stability
of our
internet.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Tim</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 3:50
PM, allison
nixon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
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<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Thanks
for the
documentation
in your
earlier email.
While I
understand
that's how
things are
supposed to
work in
theory, it's
not
implemented
very widely,
and unless
there is
enforcement,
then it's
unlikely to be
useful at all.</span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>"</span><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">as a given, we
put ourselves
in a certain
position in
terms of the
actions we can
and cannot
recommend. We
can make
similar
statements
focused on
registry
operators,
registrars, or
any other
stakeholder in
this space. If
we all
approach this
WG's task with
the goal of
not changing
anything,
we're all just
wasting our
time."</span><span><br>
<br>
</span><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size"
style="font-size:9.5pt">There are things that people would be willing to
change about
WHOIS. Changes
purely
relating to
the data
format would
not be as
controversial.
Changing to
that RDAP json
format would
probably be an
agreeable
point to most
here.</span><span></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">There are two
different
major points
of contention
here. The
first is the
data format,
second is the
creation of a
new monopoly
and ceding
power to it.
By monopoly I
mean- who are
the
gatekeepers of
"gated"
access? Will
it avoid all
of the
problems that
monopolies are
historically
prone to? Who
will pay them?
It seems like
a massive leap
of faith to
commit to this
without
knowing who we
are making the
commitment to.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-bottom:12pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">"I do not
believe it is
this WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br>
deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. "</span><span></span></span></p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">From my
understanding
of past ICANN
working
groups,
registrars
have fought
against issues
that would
have increased
their costs.
And the
destruction of
useful WHOIS
results(or
becoming
beholden to
some new
monopoly)
stand to incur
far more costs
for far larger
industries.
So this
shouldn't
surprise you.
If those
economic
concerns are
not valid then
I question why
the economic
concerns of
registrars are
valid.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">If entire
industries are
built around a
feature you
would consider
a
"deficiency",
then your
opinion may
solely be your
own. And I
hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">"Not trying to
hamstring the
WG. Just
asking if this
is not
something that
has already
been solved.."</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Hi Paul,</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">It's an
interesting
thought. This
document was
recommended to
me as one that
was approved
in the past by
the working
group that
outlined what
the resulting
system might
look like. I'm
still learning
and reading
about these
working groups
and what they
do, and this
document is
massive.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-06jun14-en.pdf"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/syste
m/files/files/final-report-06j un14-en.pdf</a></span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">In the
document, it
says: <i>"Central
to the remit
of the EWG is
the question
of how to
design a
system that
increases the
accuracy of
the data
collected
while also
offering
protections
for those
Registrants seeking
to guard and
maintain their
privacy."</i></span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">One of the
things I
notice is that
any talk about
actually
increasing
accuracy of
whois info-
via
enforcement-
is vigorously
opposed in
this group,
and it's
merely assumed
that people
will supply
better quality
data under the
new system. </span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Throughout the
document it
talks about
use-cases and
features
(whois
history,
reverse query,
etc), which
are indeed
identical to
the features
of the whois
aggregators of
current day.
Such a system
would replace
them. Will the
service
quality be as
good?</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">On page 63 it
gets into
thoughts on
who would be
"accredited"
to access the
gated whois
data. Every
proposed
scenario seems
to recognize
the resulting
system will
need to handle
a large query
volume from a
large number
of people, and
one proposes
accrediting
bodies which
may accredit
organizations
which may
accredit
individuals.
It even
proposes an
abuse handling
system which
is also
reminiscent in
structure to
how abuse is
handled
currently in
our domain
name system.
Many of these
proposed
schemes appear
to mimic the
ways that the
hosting
industry and
registrar
industry
operate, so we
can expect
that the
patterns of
abuse will be
equally
frequent,
especially if
higher quality
data is
supplied.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">The proposed
scenarios all
paint a
picture of
"gated" access
with very wide
gates, while
simultaneously
representing
to domain
purchasers
that their
data is safe
and privacy
protected. And
this is
supposed to
*reduce* the
total number
of privacy
violations?
This doesn't
even appeal to
me as a
consumer of
this data.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Whoever sets
up this system
also stands to
inherit a lot
of money from
the
soon-to-be-defunct
whois
aggregation
industry. They
would
certainly win
our contract,
because we
would have no
choice. All
domain
reputation
services,
anti-spam,
security
research, etc,
efforts will
all need to
pay up. </span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">After being
supplied with
the above
document, I
also saw a
copy of a
rebuttal
written by a
company that
monitors
abusive
domains. I
strongly agree
with the
sentiments in
this document
and I do not
see evidence
that those
concerns have
received fair
consideration.
While I do not
see this new
gatekeeper as
an existential
threat, I do
see it as a
likely
degradation in
the utility i
do see from
whois. To be
clear, we do
not do any
business with
this company.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/input-to-ewg/attachments/20130823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommentsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementStructure-0001.pdf"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/
input-to-ewg/attachments/20130 823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen
tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt
ructure-0001.pdf</a></span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">I also found
John
Bambenek's
point in a
later thread
to be
interesting-
concentrating
WHOIS
knowledge
solely to one
organization
allows the
country it
resides in to
use it to
support its
intelligence
apparatus, for
example
monitoring
when its
espionage
domains are
queried for,
and targeting
researchers
that query
them (since
anonymous
querying will
be revoked).
Nation states
already use
domains in
operations so
this monopoly
is a perfect
strategic data
reserve. The
fact that this
system is
pushed by
privacy
advocates is
indeed ironic.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="m_5557760971739383483size" style="font-size:9.5pt">None of those
concerns
appear to have
been addressed
by this group
in any serious
capacity.
Before the
addition of
new members, I
don't think
many people
had the
backgrounds or
skillsets to
even
understand why
they are a
concern. But I
think this is
a discussion
worth having
at this point
in time for
this group.</span><span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>On
Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 1:50
PM, Andrew
Sullivan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>Hi,<br>
<br>
On Mon, Apr
24, 2017 at
07:25:47PM
+0200, Paul
Keating wrote:<br>
> Andrew,<br>
><br>
> Thank
you. That was
helpful.<br>
><br>
> ""Given
this
registrant,
what other<br>
> domains
are
registered?"
is a solved
problem, and
has been since
the<br>
> early
2000s.2<br>
><br>
> This is
also traceable
via
alternative
means such as
consistencies
in<br>
> various
WHOIS fields
such as email,
address, name,
etc.<br>
<br>
Well, sort
of. The
email,
address, and
name fields
are _user_<br>
supplied. So
they come from
the other
party to the
transaction.
The<br>
ROID is
assigned by
the registry
itself. So
once you have
a match,<br>
you know that
you are
looking at the
same object,
only the same<br>
object, and
all the same
object(s).<br>
<br>
Email
addresses in
particular are
guaranteed
unique in the
world at<br>
any given time
(though not
guaranteed as
unique
identifiers
over<br>
time), so they
may be useful
for these
purposes.
Take it from
someone<br>
named "Andrew
Sullivan",
however, that
names are
pretty useless
as<br>
context-free
identifiers :)<br>
<br>
> In
reality
finding out
answers to
questions such
as<br>
> yours
(above)
requires
investigation
using a
plethora of
data.<br>
<br>
To be clear,
finding out
the answer to
what I (meant
to) pose(d)<br>
requires no
plethora of
data: it
requires a
single query
and access to<br>
the right
repository
(the
registry). In
some
theoretical
system, the<br>
correct
underlying
database query
would be
something like
this:<br>
<br>
SELECT
domain_roid,
domain_name
FROM domains
WHERE
registrant_roid
= ?;<br>
<br>
and you put
the correct
ROID in where
the question
mark is, and
off<br>
you go. That
will give you
the list of
all the domain
names, and<br>
their relevant
ROIDs,
registered by
a given
registrant
contact. At<br>
least one
registry with
which I am
familiar once
had a WHOIS
feature<br>
that allowed
something
close to the
above, only it
would stop
after<br>
some number of
domains so as
not to return
too much
data. I think
the<br>
default was
therefore
LIMIT 50, but
I also think
the feature
was<br>
eventually
eliminated
about the time
that the ICANN
community
rejected<br>
IRIS as an
answer to "the
whois
problem".<br>
<br>
What the above
will of course
not do is help
you in the
event Bob The<br>
Scammer has
created dozens
of different
contacts for
himself by
(say)<br>
registering
names through
many different
registrars. I
do not believe<br>
that any
registry is
going to
support such a
use at least
without<br>
access
controls,
because it can
be expensive
to answer such
things.<br>
So, what you
understood me
to be asking,
I think, is
the question I<br>
did _not_ ask:
given this
human being or
organization,
what other<br>
domains are
registered?"
That does
require a lot
of different
data,<br>
and it
requires
cross-organizational
searches, and
it requires
sussing<br>
out when
someone has
lied also.
Such research
is, I agree,
completely<br>
outside the
scope of what
any technical
system will
ever be able
to<br>
offer
reliably.<br>
<br>
> An entire<br>
> industry
exists for
this purpose
and I don1t
think we
should be<br>
>
considering
replacing what
has already
been existing
in the cyber
security<br>
>
marketplace.<br>
<br>
I do not
believe it is
this WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's<br>
commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br>
deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. In
this case,
however,<br>
that's not the
problem.
Linking data
in multiple
databases to a
given<br>
real-world
human being is
hard even in
systems
without
competition
and<br>
multiple
points of
access. It's
always going
to require
researchers<br>
for the domain
name system.<br>
<br>
Best regards.</span></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span><br>
A<br>
<br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">--</span><br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">Andrew
Sullivan</span><br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
rel="noreferrer
nofollow
noopener"
target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">______________________________
_________________</span><br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="m_5557760971739383483m_-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a
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target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
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</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>--</span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>______________________________
___<br>
Note to self:
Pillage BEFORE
burning.</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span><br>
______________________________ _________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
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</blockquote>
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style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>______________________________
_________________</span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<blockquote
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<div>
<div>
<blockquote
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<p
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</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
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<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span><br>
______________________________ _________________</span></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
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style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span><br>
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</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>_______________________________________________<br>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"
class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span>_______________________________________________<br>
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class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_5557760971739383483highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div>gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a
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<p><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________
</pre>
<pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre>--
</pre>
<pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann
</pre>
<pre>- Rechtsabteilung -
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH
</pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1
</pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert
</pre>
<pre>Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
</pre>
<pre>Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
</pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
</pre>
<pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
</pre>
<pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------------
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Best regards,
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann
</pre>
<pre>- legal department -
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH
</pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1
</pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert
</pre>
<pre>Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
</pre>
<pre>Fax.: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
</pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>CEO: Alexander Siffrin
</pre>
<pre>Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
</pre>
<pre>V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre>
</pre>
</div>
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<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
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<div dir="ltr"><font
face="arial,
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color="#073763">John
Horton<br>
President and CEO,
LegitScript</font>
<div><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ"
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<p
style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font
color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font
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color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a>
| <a
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target="_blank"><font
color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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| <font
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|<font
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target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></p>
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color="#ff9900"><br>
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style="text-align:left;margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><font
color="#ff9900"><img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png"
height="96"
width="46"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ"
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------------------------------------------
"It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
in an unjust state" -Confucius
邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也
------------------------------------------------
Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar)
Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lanfran@Yorku.ca">Lanfran@Yorku.ca</a> Skype: slanfranco
blog: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com">https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com</a>
Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852</pre>
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