<div>Theo, thank you for this.<br><br>Purposes have to be necessary and proportionate and, if we take
the EU’s GDPR for instance, data controllers must also assess less intrusive
means of achieving said purpose.<br><br>If the purpose of
the RDS is, say, to facilitate contact with the registrant of a domain name, I don't see how one could reasonably argue that a
proportionate processing of that data entails publishing their contact
details in a publicly accessible database. <br><br>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block "><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user "><div>Ayden Férdeline<br></div><div><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<br></div><div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 5:33 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 16:33<br></div><div>From: gtheo@xs4all.nl<br></div><div>To: Paul Keating <Paul@law.es>, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com>, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com><br></div><div>RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br></div><div><br></div><div> <br></div><p></p><div>Paul, et al, <br></div><div> <br></div><div> The collection is not the issue. <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Article 6(1)(b) Directive provides that personal data may only be
collected for specified, explicit and legitimate purposes and not
further processed in a way incompatible with those purposes
(articles 7 and 9 Wbp). Processing of personal data is allowed to
a limited number of legitimate grounds, specified in Article 7
Directive (Article 8 Wbp).<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Regardless if you buy socks online in the EU or a domain name,
everyone collects data to fulfill a contract. <br></div><div> Putting identifiable personal data in a public database aka WHOIS
is way beyond the contract as we have zero means of protecting
that data as it is up for grabs without zero restrictions.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> The entire GDPR, or directives or Privacy Shield or WBP has a
baseline of an adequate level of data protection. Now we can argue
here all day, but having a zero level of data protection is NO
data protection. So all arguements about consent, purpose suddenly
do not apply.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> This changes when we discuss gated access and an adequate level of
data protection. <br></div><div> <br></div><div> We had several EU Data Commissioners weigh in during ICANN 58
regarding the above, I am personally not going to argue with those
guys. <br></div><div> <br></div><div> When we look at the fulfillment of the contract and purpose. What
exactly does one need to register a domain name? Thin WHOIS
Registries have a very successful track record in years and number
of domain names that only a set of name servers is required, the
domain name and the registration period. <br></div><p></p><p>Thanks, <br></p><p>Theo <br></p><div><br></div><div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27-4-2017 17:05, Paul Keating wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Ayden,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Im sorry but you are mistaken in your predicate. The rule
requires that you have a purpose. In order to obtain consent
the purpose must be clearly stated (otherwise the consent is not
valid). No data processor can use the data outside of the scope
of the declared purpose and consent.<br></div><div><br></div><div><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">Data
controllers may collect and process personal data when any of
the following conditions are met:</span></span></span><br></p><h2 style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 19px; line-height:
1.1; color: rgb(14, 60, 103); font-weight: normal; margin:
14px 0px; font-family: 'Gill Sans', sans-serif;">For
collecting personal data:<br></h2><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">Pursuant
to the Wbp, a data controller may only collect personal data
if he has a purpose for this.</span></span></span><br></p><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">The
purpose must be:</span></span></span><br></p><ul style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(58, 57, 58);
font-family: 'Gill Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><li style="box-sizing: border-box;">specified<br></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;">explicit, and<br></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;">legitimate.<br></li></ul><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">A data
controller may not collect data if he has not clearly
specified the purpose.</span></span></span><br></p><h2 style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 19px; line-height:
1.1; color: rgb(14, 60, 103); font-weight: normal; margin:
14px 0px; font-family: 'Gill Sans', sans-serif;">For
processing personal data:<br></h2><ul style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(58, 57, 58);
font-family: 'Gill Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the data subject has
unambiguously given his prior consent thereto<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the processing is
necessary for the performance of a contract to which the
data subject is party<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the processing is
necessary in order to comply with a legal obligation to
which the data controller is subject<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the transfer is necessary
in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the transfer is necessary
or legally required in order to protect an important public
interest, oe<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;">the processing is
necessary for upholding the legitimate interests of the data
controller or of a third party to whom the data is supplied,
except where the interests or fundamental rights and
freedoms of the data subject, in particular the right to
protection of individual privacy, prevail.<br></li></ul><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">In
addition, personal data may not be further processed in a way
incompatible with the purposes for which the data were
originally collected. Whether further processing is
incompatible depends on different circumstances, such as:</span></span></span><br></p><ul style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(58, 57, 58);
font-family: 'Gill Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the relationship between
the purpose of the intended processing and the purposes for
which the data originally was obtained<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the nature of the data
concerned<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the consequences of the
intended processing for the data subject<br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div>the manner in which the
data have been obtained, and <br></div><div> <br></div></li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;">the extent to which
appropriate guarantees have been put in place with respect
to the data subject.<br></li></ul><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">Also,
personal data may only be processed, where, given the purposes
for which they are collected or subsequently processed, they
are adequate, relevant and not excessive.</span></span></span><br></p><p style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(58, 57, 58)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Gill Sans", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:16px">Finally,
the Wbp sets out strict rules in relation to sensitive data.
The main rule is that such data may not be processed, unless
the data subject has given his explicit consent to
it. However, there are exemptions to this rule which may apply
in certain circumstances.</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><br></div><span><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><div><b>From: </b> <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Reply-To: </b> Ayden
Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Date: </b> Thursday, April
27, 2017 at 2:47 PM<br></div><div> <b>To: </b> Michele Blacknight
<<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Cc: </b> RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div> <b>Subject: </b> Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association
resolution regarding domain registration data<br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0
0 0 5;"><div><div>Hi Michele, <br></div><div> <br></div><div> My understanding of the General Data Protection Regulation
is that a data controller must only process data in
accordance with six general principles, one of which is the
purpose limitation. Data can only processed to satisfy
necessary, proportionate, legitimate aims (with very few
exceptions for public interest, scientific, historical, or
statistical purposes). That a purpose is merely desirable
may not satisfy these aims. Consent is a freely given,
specific, informed, and unambiguous indication of the data
subject’s wishes, but they cannot be asked to consent to
something which is unlawful to collect in the place.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Best wishes,<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block "><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user "><div>Ayden Férdeline<br></div><div><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution regarding domain
registration data<br></div><div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 1:18 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 12:18<br></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">michele@blacknight.com</a><br></div><div>To: Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Ayden<br></div><div>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the consent meant to
be tied to a specific set of purposes? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards <br></div><div><br></div><div>Michele <br></div><div><div><br></div><div>Mr Michele Neylon<br></div><div>Blacknight Hosting & Domains<br></div><div><a href="http://www.blacknight.host/" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">http://www.blacknight.host/</a><br></div><div><a href="http://www.mneylon.social" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">http://www.mneylon.social</a><br></div><div>Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal <br></div></div><div><div><br></div><div>On 27 Apr 2017, at 12:45, Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div>re: the repeated suggestion of “opt in
registration for public WHOIS”. It bears repeating
what was said to us by the Data Protection
Commissioners in Copenhagen; consent is not a waiver
for disproportionate or unlawful processing. You
cannot ask a data subject to consent to something
which is unlawful. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Ayden Férdeline<br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block "><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user "><div><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law
enforcement association resolution regarding domain
registration data<br></div><div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 12:36 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 11:36<br></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:Paul@law.es" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">Paul@law.es</a><br></div><div>To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">michele@blacknight.com</a>>,
Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>,
Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br></div><div>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">"</span><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span class="font" style="font-family:-webkit-standard">Privacy laws in one part of the
world are a factor we need to be aware of,
among other factors. </span></span></span>“<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)"><span class="font" style="font-family:-webkit-standard"></span></span><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(255, 254, 254)"><span class="font" style="font-family:-webkit-standard">This seems to be the entire driving
force behind considering a more restrictive
(gated) access to WHOIS. If there are other
reasons please let me know.</span></span><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(255, 254, 254)"><span class="font" style="font-family:-webkit-standard"></span></span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(254, 253, 253)">Also, I have yet to see any
legal authority that precludes:</span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(254, 253, 253)"></span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(253, 252, 252)">Opt in registration for public
WHOIS</span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(252, 251, 251)">For those not desiring a public
WHOIS record, then the ability to use a recognized
privacy service so as to “anchor" the registration
of the domain</span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(252, 251, 251)"></span><br></div><div><span class="highlight" style="background-color:rgb(251, 249, 249)">If one does exist can
someone point me to the </span>link?<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>A balancing of needs is important here. Seems to
me that the competing interests here are not simply
privacy vs. public access. There are the private
interests of those who regularly use the current
WHOIS data set for any variety of purposes
including:<br></div><div><br></div><div>Security research and prevention<br></div><div>Law enforcement<br></div><div>Highjacking recovery<br></div><div>Private transactions (confirmation of current and
historical ownership)<br></div><div>Lending and financing transactions (confirmation
of ownership to support security interests)<br></div><div>Providing WHOIS and other data services to others<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Paul<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM:
medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in;
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt
solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP:
3pt"><div><b>From: </b><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Michele Blacknight <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br></div><div><b>Date: </b>Thursday, April 27, 2017 at
9:21 AM<br></div><div><b>To: </b>Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>,
Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br></div><div><b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
international law enforcement association
resolution regarding domain registration
data<br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid;
PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang="EN-GB" bgcolor="white"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Greg</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">As
a business owner I need to make sure
that I’m not exposing myself or the
company to unnecessary risk.</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">While
big corporations might be
comfortable spending large amounts
of money on “creative” tax
arrangements that isn’t really an
option for smaller companies like
ourselves.</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Regards</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><br>Michele</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br></p><div><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">--</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Mr Michele Neylon</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Blacknight Solutions</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Hosting, Colocation
& Domains</span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://www.blacknight.com/" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://www.blacknight.com/</a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://blacknight.blog/" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)">https://blacknight.blog/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://ceo.hosting/" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)">https://ceo.hosting/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Intl. +353 (0) 59
9183072</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Direct Dial: +353
(0)59 9183090</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">-------------------------------</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Blacknight Internet
Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
Business Park,Sleaty</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p style="text-autospace:none" class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93
X265,</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ireland
Company No.: 370845</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span><br></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm
0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif";color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif";color:black"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Wednesday 26 April
2017 at 23:38<br> <b>To: </b>Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br> <b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international
law enforcement association
resolution regarding domain
registration data</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We
also need to be very clear about
the limits of the legal
requirements of applicable law,
and the various options
available for dealing with the
law. There's no need to
overcomply. Indeed it would be
quite unreasonable to do so. </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif""> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">Just
as paying the lowest calculable
income tax is perfectly
legitimate, so is complying with
the law in the least disruptive
way possible.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif""> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">Greg</span><br></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p><a name="UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeH"></a><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">Greg
Shatan<br> </span></b><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">C: 917-816-6428<br> S: gsshatan<br> Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br> </span><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 1:06 PM, Volker Greimann
<<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p>I wish it were so simple.
"Doing harm" is not necessary
to be in violation with
applicable law. Just like
jaywalking, speeding on an
empty road or crossing a red
light carries a fine
regardless of whether harm was
done, privacy law too does not
care about an actual harm.<br></p><p>We need to be very clear
about the legal requirements
when we define the limits of
what can be done with the data
we collect, and by whom.<br></p><p>Volker<br></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Am
26.04.2017 um 18:43 schrieb
John Horton:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Greg,
well said. And Tim, well
said. And I'll strongly +1
Michael Hammer as well. I
agree with the "do no
harm" philosophy -- I'm
not convinced that some of
the proposed changes
(e.g., those outlined in
the EWG report) wouldn't
cause more harm than the
existing, admittedly
imperfect, system. As I've
said before, the
importance of tools like
Reverse Whois isn't only
direct -- it's derivative
as well. (If you enjoy the
benefits of those of us
who fight payment fraud,
online abuse and other
sorts of malfeasance, you
have reverse Whois among
other tools to thank.)
Privacy laws in one part
of the world are a factor
we need to be aware of,
among other factors. <br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On
Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at
9:07 AM nathalie
coupet via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">On
Wednesday,
April 26, 2017
12:02 PM,
Victoria
Sheckler <<a href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>>
wrote:</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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iPhone</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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2017, at 8:56
AM, Greg
Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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for weighing
in, Tim.
Since this is
a multi<u>stakeholder</u> process,
everyone is
assumed to
come in with a
point of view,
so don't be
shy. At the
same time, if
stakeholders
cling
dogmatically
to their
points of view
the
multistakeholder
model doesn't
work.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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for being out
on a limb:</span></span><br></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0
level1
lfo1;background:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We haven't
decided what
data will be
"private" and
for which
registrants
(e.g., based
on geography
or entity
status)</span><br></li><li style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0
level1
lfo1;background:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We haven't
decided there
will be
"gated" access
and what that
might mean,
both for
policy and
practicality</span><br></li><li style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0
level1
lfo1;background:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">The question
shouldn't be
whether we
will be
"allowing
third parties
access to
harvest,
repackage and
republish that
data," but how
we should
allow this in
a way that
balances
various
concerns.
Eliminating
reverse Whois
and other such
services is
not a goal of
this Working
Group.</span><br></li></ul><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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job should be
to provide the
greatest
possible
access to the
best possible
data,
consistent
with
minimizing
risk under
reasonable
interpretations
of applicable
law. We need
to deal with
existing and
incoming
privacy laws
(and with
other laws) as
well, but not
in a
worshipful
manner;
instead it
should be in a
solution-oriented manner. This is not, after all, the Privacy Working
Group. I'll
+1 Michael
Hammer: </span><span class="size" style="font-size:9.5pt">Rather than starting from a model
of justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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while our
purpose is not
to maintain
anyone's
economic
interest,
economic
interests may
well be
aligned with
policy
interests.
Assuming that
economic
interests are
at odds with
policy
interests is
just as
dangerous as
assuming that
policy
interests are
served by
maximizing
economic
interests.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Shatan<br> </span></b><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">C: <a href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"> 917-816-6428</a><br> S: gsshatan<br> Phone-to-Skype: <a href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">646-845-9428</a><br> </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 11:28
AM, Dotzero
<<a href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">dotzero@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
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to what Tim
and Allison
wrote.</span></span><br></p></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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a starting
point, I've
had an account
with
DomainTools in
the past and
will likely
have one in
the future,
although I
don't
currently have
one. <br> <br> There are
other
organizations
and
individuals
which
consume/aggregate
whois data so
I don't think
that for the
purposes of
this
discussion the
focus should
be on just
DomainTools. I
know
researchers
and academics
who use this
data to
analyze all
sorts of
things. As has
been pointed
out, there are
all sorts of
folks staking
out positions
because of
their economic
(and other)
interests
without
necessarily
being
transparent
about those
interests.</span></span></p></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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should be
remembered
that the
Internet is an
agglomeration
of many
networks and
resources,
some public
and some
private. At
the same time,
it is simply a
bunch of
technical
standards that
people and
organizations
have agreed to
use to
interact with
each other. In
many cases,
the ultimate
solution to
abuse is to
drop route. To
the extent
that good and
granular
information is
not readily
available,
regular
(innocent)
users may
suffer as
owners and
administrators
of resources
act to protect
those
resources and
their
legitimate
users from
abuse and
maliciousness.
The reality is
that most
users of the
internet
utilize a
relatively
small subset
of all the
resources out
there. For
some, a
service like
Facebook IS
the Internet.<br> <br> It may also
incite a
tendency
towards
returning to a
model of
walled
gardens. At
various points
I have heard
discussions
about the
balkanization
of the
internet, with
things like
separate
roots, etc.
People should
think very
carefully
about what
they are
asking for
because they
may not be
happy with it
if they
actually get
it.</span></span></p></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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than starting
from a model
of justifying
everything and
anything from
a privacy
perspective, I
would suggest
that it would
be much more
appropriate,
other than
technical
changes such
as moving
towards using
JSON, to
require
justification
and consensus
for any
changes from
the existing
model(s) of
WHOIS.</span></span><br></p></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Hammer</span></span><br></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
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Wed, Apr 26,
2017 at 10:27
AM, allison
nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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1.0pt;padding:0cm
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you for your
email Tim.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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disclosure(because I believe in being transparent about this sort of
thing), we do
business with
Domaintools
and use their
tools to
consume whois
data.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the point
of the WG is
not to protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion."</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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will however
disagree
vehemently
with you on
this point. It
is obvious
that many of
the arguments
to cut off
anonymous
querying to
WHOIS data are
economically
motivated.
Financial
concerns are
cited numerous
times in
approved
documents. I
also believe
the "vetting"
process is
likely to
become a new
revenue stream
for someone as
well. A
revenue stream
with HIGHLY
questionable
privacy
value-add.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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dollar of
income for the
Domaintools
company and
others like it
come from
their clients,
who see a
multiplier of
value from it.
That means for
every dollar
spent on the
entire whois
aggregator
industry means
that a much
larger amount
of money is
saved through
prevented
harms like
fraud, abuse,
and even fake
medications
which kill
people.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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think it is
extremely
important to
identify what
critical
systems rely
on whois
(either
directly or
downstream),
and determine
if we are
ready to give
up the utility
of these
systems.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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also need to
identify the
value of the
ability to
anonymously
query whois
and what that
loss of
privacy will
mean as well.
While I
obviously do
not make many
queries
anonymously(although
our vendor has
their own
privacy
policy), I
understand
this is
important
especially to
those
researching
more dangerous
actors. Why
would
$_COUNTRY
dissidents
want to query
domains when
their
opponents
would surely
be hacking
into the audit
logs for this?</span></span><br></p></div><div><div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Apr 25, 2017
11:41 PM,
"Chen, Tim"
<<a href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">tim@domaintools.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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1.0pt;padding:0cm
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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I hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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to do so.
DomainTools is
clearly a
stakeholder in
this debate.
and we have a
fair amount of
experience
around the
challenges,
benefits and
risks of whois
data
aggregation at
scale. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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the beginning
of this
EWG/RDS idea
we've stood
down bc i
didn't believe
our opinion
would be seen
as
objective-enough
given our line
of business.
but it is
apparent to me
having
followed this
debate for
many weeks
now, that this
is a working
group of
individuals
who all bring
their own
biases into
the debate.
whether they
care to admit
that to
themselves or
not. so we
might as well
wade in too.
bc I think
our experience
is very
relevant to
the
discussion.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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do my best to
be as
objective as I
can, as a
domain
registrant
myself and as
an informed
industry
participant.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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our experience
is working
with security
minded
organizations,
that is the
context with
which I will
comment. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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this is an
ICANN working
group, I start
with the ICANN
mission
statement
around the
security and
stability of
the DNS. I
find myself
wanting to fit
this debate to
that as the
north star. i
do not see the
RDS as purpose
driven to fit
the GDPR or
any
region-specific
legal
resolution.
but I do see
those as
important
inputs to our
discussion.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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a security
perspective,
my experience
is that the
benefits of
the current
Whois model,
taken with
this lens, far
outweigh the
costs. again,
I can only
speak from my
experience
here at
DomainTools,
and obviously
under the
current Whois
regime. This
is not to say
it cannot be
improved.
From a data
accuracy
perspective
alone there is
enormous room
for
improvement as
I think we can
all agree.
every day I
see the
tangible
benefits to
security
interests,
which for the
most part are
"doing good",
from the work
that we do.
when I
compare that
to the
complaints
that we get bc
"my PII is
visible in
your data",
it's not even
close by my
value
barometer
(which my
differ from
others').
this is
relevant bc
any future
solution will
be imperfect
as I have
mentioned
before. as
Allison and
others point
out we need to
measure the
harm done by
any new system
that may seek
to solve one
problem
(privacy?) and
inadvertently
create many
more. since
this group is
fond of
analogies I'll
contribute one
from the
medical oath
(not sure if
this is just
U.S.) "first,
do no harm".</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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close by
saying I think
Allison's
point about
economic value
has merit.
yes, the
point of the
WG is not to
protect
anyone's
economic
interest. I
agree 100%
with that
statement and
will disagree
with anyone
who thinks the
future of
DomainTools or
other
commercial
service should
have one iota
of impact on
this
discussion.
but I also
think "it's
too expensive"
or "it's too
hard" are weak
and dangerous
excuses when
dealing with
an issue like
this which has
enormous and
far reaching
consequences
for the very
mission of
ICANN around
the security
and stability
of our
internet.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 3:50
PM, allison
nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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1.0pt;padding:0cm
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for the
documentation
in your
earlier email.
While I
understand
that's how
things are
supposed to
work in
theory, it's
not
implemented
very widely,
and unless
there is
enforcement,
then it's
unlikely to be
useful at all.</span></span><br></p><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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certain
position in
terms of the
actions we can
and cannot
recommend. We
can make
similar
statements
focused on
registry
operators,
registrars, or
any other
stakeholder in
this space. If
we all
approach this
WG's task with
the goal of
not changing
anything,
we're all just
wasting our
time."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br> <br> </span><span class="size" style="font-size:9.5pt">There
are things
that people
would be
willing to
change about
WHOIS. Changes
purely
relating to
the data
format would
not be as
controversial.
Changing to
that RDAP json
format would
probably be an
agreeable
point to most
here.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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are two
different
major points
of contention
here. The
first is the
data format,
second is the
creation of a
new monopoly
and ceding
power to it.
By monopoly I
mean- who are
the
gatekeepers of
"gated"
access? Will
it avoid all
of the
problems that
monopolies are
historically
prone to? Who
will pay them?
It seems like
a massive leap
of faith to
commit to this
without
knowing who we
are making the
commitment to.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
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do not believe
it is this
WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br> deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. "</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span></p><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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my
understanding
of past ICANN
working
groups,
registrars
have fought
against issues
that would
have increased
their costs.
And the
destruction of
useful WHOIS
results(or
becoming
beholden to
some new
monopoly)
stand to incur
far more costs
for far larger
industries.
So this
shouldn't
surprise you.
If those
economic
concerns are
not valid then
I question why
the economic
concerns of
registrars are
valid.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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entire
industries are
built around a
feature you
would consider
a
"deficiency",
then your
opinion may
solely be your
own. And I
hope more
stakeholders
in this
multi-stakeholder
process will
come forward
with their own
perspectives,
as they will
differ from
mine.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="size" style="font-size:9.5pt">"Not trying
to hamstring
the WG. Just
asking if this
is not
something that
has already
been solved.."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Paul,</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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an interesting
thought. This
document was
recommended to
me as one that
was approved
in the past by
the working
group that
outlined what
the resulting
system might
look like. I'm
still learning
and reading
about these
working groups
and what they
do, and this
document is
massive.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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m/files/files/final-report-06j un14-en.pdf</a></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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the document,
it says: <i>"Central
to the remit
of the EWG is
the question
of how to
design a
system that
increases the
accuracy of
the data
collected
while also
offering
protections
for those
Registrants seeking
to guard and
maintain their
privacy."</i></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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of the things
I notice is
that any talk
about actually
increasing
accuracy of
whois info-
via
enforcement-
is vigorously
opposed in
this group,
and it's
merely assumed
that people
will supply
better quality
data under the
new system. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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the document
it talks about
use-cases and
features
(whois
history,
reverse query,
etc), which
are indeed
identical to
the features
of the whois
aggregators of
current day.
Such a system
would replace
them. Will the
service
quality be as
good?</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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page 63 it
gets into
thoughts on
who would be
"accredited"
to access the
gated whois
data. Every
proposed
scenario seems
to recognize
the resulting
system will
need to handle
a large query
volume from a
large number
of people, and
one proposes
accrediting
bodies which
may accredit
organizations
which may
accredit
individuals.
It even
proposes an
abuse handling
system which
is also
reminiscent in
structure to
how abuse is
handled
currently in
our domain
name system.
Many of these
proposed
schemes appear
to mimic the
ways that the
hosting
industry and
registrar
industry
operate, so we
can expect
that the
patterns of
abuse will be
equally
frequent,
especially if
higher quality
data is
supplied.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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proposed
scenarios all
paint a
picture of
"gated" access
with very wide
gates, while
simultaneously
representing
to domain
purchasers
that their
data is safe
and privacy
protected. And
this is
supposed to
*reduce* the
total number
of privacy
violations?
This doesn't
even appeal to
me as a
consumer of
this data.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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sets up this
system also
stands to
inherit a lot
of money from
the
soon-to-be-defunct
whois
aggregation
industry. They
would
certainly win
our contract,
because we
would have no
choice. All
domain
reputation
services,
anti-spam,
security
research, etc,
efforts will
all need to
pay up. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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being supplied
with the above
document, I
also saw a
copy of a
rebuttal
written by a
company that
monitors
abusive
domains. I
strongly agree
with the
sentiments in
this document
and I do not
see evidence
that those
concerns have
received fair
consideration.
While I do not
see this new
gatekeeper as
an existential
threat, I do
see it as a
likely
degradation in
the utility i
do see from
whois. To be
clear, we do
not do any
business with
this company.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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input-to-ewg/attachments/20130 823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen
tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt
ructure-0001.pdf</a></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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also found
John
Bambenek's
point in a
later thread
to be
interesting-
concentrating
WHOIS
knowledge
solely to one
organization
allows the
country it
resides in to
use it to
support its
intelligence
apparatus, for
example
monitoring
when its
espionage
domains are
queried for,
and targeting
researchers
that query
them (since
anonymous
querying will
be revoked).
Nation states
already use
domains in
operations so
this monopoly
is a perfect
strategic data
reserve. The
fact that this
system is
pushed by
privacy
advocates is
indeed ironic.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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of those
concerns
appear to have
been addressed
by this group
in any serious
capacity.
Before the
addition of
new members, I
don't think
many people
had the
backgrounds or
skillsets to
even
understand why
they are a
concern. But I
think this is
a discussion
worth having
at this point
in time for
this group.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div></div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Mon, Apr 24,
2017 at 1:50
PM, Andrew
Sullivan <<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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background-clip:
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24, 2017 at
07:25:47PM
+0200, Paul
Keating wrote:<br> > Andrew,<br> ><br> > Thank
you. That was
helpful.<br> ><br> > ""Given
this
registrant,
what other<br> > domains
are
registered?"
is a solved
problem, and
has been since
the<br> > early
2000s.2<br> ><br> > This is
also traceable
via
alternative
means such as
consistencies
in<br> > various
WHOIS fields
such as email,
address, name,
etc.<br> <br> Well, sort
of. The
email,
address, and
name fields
are _user_<br> supplied. So
they come from
the other
party to the
transaction.
The<br> ROID is
assigned by
the registry
itself. So
once you have
a match,<br> you know that
you are
looking at the
same object,
only the same<br> object, and
all the same
object(s).<br> <br> Email
addresses in
particular are
guaranteed
unique in the
world at<br> any given time
(though not
guaranteed as
unique
identifiers
over<br> time), so they
may be useful
for these
purposes.
Take it from
someone<br> named "Andrew
Sullivan",
however, that
names are
pretty useless
as<br> context-free
identifiers :)<br> <br> > In
reality
finding out
answers to
questions such
as<br> > yours
(above)
requires
investigation
using a
plethora of
data.<br> <br> To be clear,
finding out
the answer to
what I (meant
to) pose(d)<br> requires no
plethora of
data: it
requires a
single query
and access to<br> the right
repository
(the
registry). In
some
theoretical
system, the<br> correct
underlying
database query
would be
something like
this:<br> <br> SELECT
domain_roid,
domain_name
FROM domains
WHERE
registrant_roid
= ?;<br> <br> and you put
the correct
ROID in where
the question
mark is, and
off<br> you go. That
will give you
the list of
all the domain
names, and<br> their relevant
ROIDs,
registered by
a given
registrant
contact. At<br> least one
registry with
which I am
familiar once
had a WHOIS
feature<br> that allowed
something
close to the
above, only it
would stop
after<br> some number of
domains so as
not to return
too much
data. I think
the<br> default was
therefore
LIMIT 50, but
I also think
the feature
was<br> eventually
eliminated
about the time
that the ICANN
community
rejected<br> IRIS as an
answer to "the
whois
problem".<br> <br> What the above
will of course
not do is help
you in the
event Bob The<br> Scammer has
created dozens
of different
contacts for
himself by
(say)<br> registering
names through
many different
registrars. I
do not believe<br> that any
registry is
going to
support such a
use at least
without<br> access
controls,
because it can
be expensive
to answer such
things.<br> So, what you
understood me
to be asking,
I think, is
the question I<br> did _not_ ask:
given this
human being or
organization,
what other<br> domains are
registered?"
That does
require a lot
of different
data,<br> and it
requires
cross-organizational
searches, and
it requires
sussing<br> out when
someone has
lied also.
Such research
is, I agree,
completely<br> outside the
scope of what
any technical
system will
ever be able
to<br> offer
reliably.<br> <br> > An entire<br> > industry
exists for
this purpose
and I don1t
think we
should be<br> >
considering
replacing what
has already
been existing
in the cyber
security<br> >
marketplace.<br> <br> I do not
believe it is
this WG's
responsibility
to protect
anyone's<br> commercial
services if
those things
are basically
in response to<br> deficiencies
in the
existing Whois
protocol. In
this case,
however,<br> that's not the
problem.
Linking data
in multiple
databases to a
given<br> real-world
human being is
hard even in
systems
without
competition
and<br> multiple
points of
access. It's
always going
to require
researchers<br> for the domain
name system.<br> <br> Best regards.</span></span></p><div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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Sullivan</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a></span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">______________________________
_________________</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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___<br> Note to self:
Pillage BEFORE
burning.</span></span></p></div></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
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background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>______________________________ _________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></blockquote></div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
background-size:
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#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
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_________________</span></span><br></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
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background-size:
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initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
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background-size:
initial;
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background-clip:
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#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm
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background-size:
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initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/
listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
background-size:
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initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial;
background-size:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial;
background-position:
initial;
background-size:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
background-clip:
initial;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list<br></div><div><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div><p><br></p></blockquote></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><p><br></p><pre>_______________________________________________
<br></pre><pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
<br></pre><pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br></pre><pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a>
<br></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><p><br></p><pre>--
<br></pre><pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Volker A. Greimann
<br></pre><pre>- Rechtsabteilung -
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Key-Systems GmbH
<br></pre><pre>Im Oberen Werk 1
<br></pre><pre>66386 St. Ingbert
<br></pre><pre>Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
<br></pre><pre>Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
<br></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
<br></pre><pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
<br></pre><pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.keydrive.lu</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>--------------------------------------------
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Best regards,
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Volker A. Greimann
<br></pre><pre>- legal department -
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Key-Systems GmbH
<br></pre><pre>Im Oberen Werk 1
<br></pre><pre>66386 St. Ingbert
<br></pre><pre>Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
<br></pre><pre>Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
<br></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>CEO: Alexander Siffrin
<br></pre><pre>Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
<br></pre><pre>V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<br></pre><pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">www.keydrive.lu</a>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre><pre>
<br></pre></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></div><div><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div><p><br></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></div></div></div><div>_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div></blockquote></span></span></span></blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div></blockquote></span><div><br></div><div><br></div><pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></pre></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div>