<div>Hi Michele, <br><br>My understanding of the General Data Protection Regulation is that a data controller must only process data in accordance with six general principles, one of which is the purpose limitation. Data can only processed to satisfy necessary, proportionate, legitimate aims (with very few exceptions for public interest, scientific, historical, or statistical purposes). That a purpose is merely desirable may not satisfy these aims. Consent is a freely given, specific, informed, and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes, but they cannot be asked to consent to something which is unlawful to collect in the place.<br><br>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block "><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user "><div>Ayden Férdeline<br></div><div><a title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<br></div><div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 1:18 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 12:18<br></div><div>From: michele@blacknight.com<br></div><div>To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com><br></div><div>RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br></div><div><br></div><div> <br></div><div>Ayden<br></div><div>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the consent meant to be tied to a specific set of purposes? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards <br></div><div><br></div><div>Michele <br></div><div><div><br></div><div>Mr Michele Neylon<br></div><div>Blacknight Hosting & Domains<br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.blacknight.host/">http://www.blacknight.host/</a><br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.mneylon.social">http://www.mneylon.social</a><br></div><div>Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal <br></div></div><div><div><br></div><div>On 27 Apr 2017, at 12:45, Ayden Férdeline <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div>re: the repeated suggestion of “opt in registration for public WHOIS”. It bears repeating what was said to us by the Data Protection Commissioners in Copenhagen; consent is not a waiver for disproportionate or unlawful processing. You cannot ask a data
subject to consent to something which is unlawful. <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Ayden Férdeline<br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block "><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user "><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br></div></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<br></div><div>Local Time: 27 April 2017 12:36 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 27 April 2017 11:36<br></div><div>From: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:Paul@law.es">Paul@law.es</a><br></div><div>To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>>, Greg Shatan <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Volker Greimann <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br></div><div>RDS PDP WG <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif" class="font">"</span><span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)" class="highlight"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)" class="colour"><span style="font-family:-webkit-standard" class="font">Privacy laws in
one part of the world are a factor we need to be aware of, among other factors. </span></span></span>“<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:-webkit-standard" class="font"></span></span><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color:rgb(255, 254, 254)" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:-webkit-standard" class="font">This seems to be the entire driving force behind considering a more
restrictive (gated) access to WHOIS. If there are other reasons please let me know.</span></span><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color:rgb(255, 254, 254)" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:-webkit-standard" class="font"></span></span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(254, 253, 253)" class="highlight">Also, I have yet to see any legal authority that precludes:</span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(254, 253, 253)" class="highlight"></span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(253, 252, 252)" class="highlight">Opt in registration for public WHOIS</span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(252, 251, 251)" class="highlight">For those not desiring a public WHOIS record, then the ability to use a recognized privacy service so as to “anchor" the registration of the domain</span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(252, 251, 251)" class="highlight"></span><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(251, 249, 249)" class="highlight">If one does exist can someone point me to the </span>link?<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>A balancing of needs is important here. Seems to me that the competing interests here are not simply privacy vs. public access. There are the private interests of those who regularly use the current WHOIS data set for any variety of purposes including:<br></div><div><br></div><div>Security research and prevention<br></div><div>Law enforcement<br></div><div>Highjacking recovery<br></div><div>Private transactions (confirmation of current and historical ownership)<br></div><div>Lending and financing transactions (confirmation of ownership to support security interests)<br></div><div>Providing WHOIS and other data services to others<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Paul<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)" class="colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif" class="font"><span style="font-size:14px" class="size"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><div><b>From: </b><<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Michele Blacknight <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br></div><div><b>Date: </b>Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 9:21 AM<br></div><div><b>To: </b>Greg Shatan <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Volker Greimann <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br></div><div><b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br></div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-GB"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Greg</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">As a business owner I need to make sure that I’m not exposing myself or the company to unnecessary risk.</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">While big corporations might be comfortable spending large amounts of money on “creative” tax arrangements that isn’t really an option for smaller companies like ourselves.</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Regards</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><br>Michele</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">--</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Mr Michele Neylon</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Blacknight Solutions</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Hosting, Colocation & Domains</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://www.blacknight.com/">https://www.blacknight.com/</a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://blacknight.blog/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)" class="colour">https://blacknight.blog/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://ceo.hosting/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)" class="colour">https://ceo.hosting/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">-------------------------------</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Ireland Company No.: 370845</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span><br></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif";color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif";color:black"><<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Greg Shatan <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Wednesday 26 April 2017 at 23:38<br> <b>To: </b>Volker Greimann <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br> <b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We also need to be very clear about the limits of the legal requirements of applicable law, and the various options available for dealing with the law. There's no need to overcomply. Indeed
it would be quite unreasonable to do so. </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif""> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">Just as paying the lowest calculable income tax is perfectly legitimate, so is complying with the law in the least disruptive way possible.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif""> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">Greg</span><br></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p><a name="UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_UNIQUE_ID_SafeH"></a><b><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">Greg Shatan<br> </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">C: 917-816-6428<br> S: gsshatan<br> Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br> </span><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Volker Greimann <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p>I wish it were so simple. "Doing harm" is not necessary to be in violation with applicable law. Just like jaywalking, speeding on an empty road or crossing a red light carries a fine regardless of whether harm was done, privacy law too does not care about
an actual harm.<br></p><p>We need to be very clear about the legal requirements when we define the limits of what can be done with the data we collect, and by whom.<br></p><p>Volker<br></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Am 26.04.2017 um 18:43 schrieb John Horton:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Greg, well said. And Tim, well said. And I'll strongly +1 Michael Hammer as well. I agree with the "do no harm" philosophy -- I'm not convinced that some of the proposed changes (e.g., those outlined in the EWG report) wouldn't cause more
harm than the existing, admittedly imperfect, system. As I've said before, the importance of tools like Reverse Whois isn't only direct -- it's derivative as well. (If you enjoy the benefits of those of us who fight payment fraud, online abuse and other sorts
of malfeasance, you have reverse Whois among other tools to thank.) Privacy laws in one part of the world are a factor we need to be aware of, among other factors. <br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:07 AM nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">+1</span></span><br></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">Nathalie </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size"> </span></span><br></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:02 PM, Victoria Sheckler <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">+1<br> <br> Sent from my iPhone</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>On Apr 26, 2017, at 8:56 AM, Greg Shatan <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif";color:black">Thanks for weighing in, Tim. Since this is a multi<u>stakeholder</u> process, everyone is assumed to come in with a point of view, so don't be
shy. At the same time, if stakeholders cling dogmatically to their points of view the multistakeholder model doesn't work.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif";color:black">As for being out on a limb:</span></span><br></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We haven't decided what data will be "private" and for which registrants (e.g., based on geography or entity status)</span><br></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">We haven't decided there will be "gated" access and what that might mean, both for policy and practicality</span><br></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"">The question shouldn't be whether we will be "allowing third parties access to harvest, repackage and republish that data," but how we should allow this in a way that balances various concerns. Eliminating reverse
Whois and other such services is not a goal of this Working Group.</span><br></li></ul><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif";color:black">Our job should be to provide the greatest possible access to the best possible data, consistent with minimizing risk under reasonable interpretations
of applicable law. We need to deal with existing and incoming privacy laws (and with other laws) as well, but not in a worshipful manner; instead it should be in a solution-oriented manner. This is not, after all, the Privacy Working Group. I'll +1 Michael
Hammer: </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Rather than starting from a model of justifying everything and anything from a privacy perspective, I would suggest that it would be much more appropriate, other than technical changes such as moving
towards using JSON, to require justification and consensus for any changes from the existing model(s) of WHOIS.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Finally, while our purpose is not to maintain anyone's economic interest, economic interests may well be aligned with policy interests. Assuming that economic
interests are at odds with policy interests is just as dangerous as assuming that policy interests are served by maximizing economic interests.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Greg</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><a name="m_-6028739752990097634_m_-70575339787632"></a><b><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">Greg Shatan<br> </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">C: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:(917)%20816-6428"> 917-816-6428</a><br> S: gsshatan<br> Phone-to-Skype: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:(646)%20845-9428">646-845-9428</a><br> </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><span style="font-size:10pt" class="size">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Dotzero <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com">dotzero@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Adding to what Tim and Allison wrote.</span></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">As a starting point, I've had an account with DomainTools in the past and will likely have one in the future, although I don't currently
have one. <br> <br> There are other organizations and individuals which consume/aggregate whois data so I don't think that for the purposes of this discussion the focus should be on just DomainTools. I know researchers and academics who use this data to analyze all sorts of things.
As has been pointed out, there are all sorts of folks staking out positions because of their economic (and other) interests without necessarily being transparent about those interests.</span></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">It should be remembered that the Internet is an agglomeration of many networks and resources, some public and some private. At the same
time, it is simply a bunch of technical standards that people and organizations have agreed to use to interact with each other. In many cases, the ultimate solution to abuse is to drop route. To the extent that good and granular information is not readily
available, regular (innocent) users may suffer as owners and administrators of resources act to protect those resources and their legitimate users from abuse and maliciousness. The reality is that most users of the internet utilize a relatively small subset
of all the resources out there. For some, a service like Facebook IS the Internet.<br> <br> It may also incite a tendency towards returning to a model of walled gardens. At various points I have heard discussions about the balkanization of the internet, with things like separate roots, etc. People should think very carefully about what they are asking
for because they may not be happy with it if they actually get it.</span></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Rather than starting from a model of justifying everything and anything from a privacy perspective, I would suggest that it would be much
more appropriate, other than technical changes such as moving towards using JSON, to require justification and consensus for any changes from the existing model(s) of WHOIS.</span></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Michael Hammer</span></span><br></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:27 AM, allison nixon <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Thank you for your email Tim.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Full disclosure(because I believe in being transparent about this sort of thing), we do business with Domaintools and use their tools to
consume whois data.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">"i'll close by saying I think Allison's point about economic value has merit. yes, the point of the WG is not to protect anyone's economic
interest. I agree 100% with that statement and will disagree with anyone who thinks the future of DomainTools or other commercial service should have one iota of impact on this discussion."</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">I will however disagree vehemently with you on this point. It is obvious that many of the arguments to cut off anonymous querying to WHOIS
data are economically motivated. Financial concerns are cited numerous times in approved documents. I also believe the "vetting" process is likely to become a new revenue stream for someone as well. A revenue stream with HIGHLY questionable privacy value-add.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Every dollar of income for the Domaintools company and others like it come from their clients, who see a multiplier of value from it. That
means for every dollar spent on the entire whois aggregator industry means that a much larger amount of money is saved through prevented harms like fraud, abuse, and even fake medications which kill people.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">I think it is extremely important to identify what critical systems rely on whois (either directly or downstream), and determine if we are
ready to give up the utility of these systems.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">We also need to identify the value of the ability to anonymously query whois and what that loss of privacy will mean as well. While I obviously
do not make many queries anonymously(although our vendor has their own privacy policy), I understand this is important especially to those researching more dangerous actors. Why would $_COUNTRY dissidents want to query domains when their opponents would surely
be hacking into the audit logs for this?</span></span><br></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">On Apr 25, 2017 11:41 PM, "Chen, Tim" <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com">tim@domaintools.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">"And I hope more stakeholders in this multi-stakeholder process will come forward with their own perspectives, as they will differ from mine."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">happy to do so. DomainTools is clearly a stakeholder in this debate. and we have a fair amount of experience around the challenges, benefits and risks of whois
data aggregation at scale. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">from the beginning of this EWG/RDS idea we've stood down bc i didn't believe our opinion would be seen as objective-enough given our line of business. but it
is apparent to me having followed this debate for many weeks now, that this is a working group of individuals who all bring their own biases into the debate. whether they care to admit that to themselves or not. so we might as well wade in too. bc I think
our experience is very relevant to the discussion.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">i'll do my best to be as objective as I can, as a domain registrant myself and as an informed industry participant.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">since our experience is working with security minded organizations, that is the context with which I will comment. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">since this is an ICANN working group, I start with the ICANN mission statement around the security and stability of the DNS. I find myself wanting to fit this
debate to that as the north star. i do not see the RDS as purpose driven to fit the GDPR or any region-specific legal resolution. but I do see those as important inputs to our discussion.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">from a security perspective, my experience is that the benefits of the current Whois model, taken with this lens, far outweigh the costs. again, I can only speak
from my experience here at DomainTools, and obviously under the current Whois regime. This is not to say it cannot be improved. From a data accuracy perspective alone there is enormous room for improvement as I think we can all agree. every day I see the
tangible benefits to security interests, which for the most part are "doing good", from the work that we do. when I compare that to the complaints that we get bc "my PII is visible in your data", it's not even close by my value barometer (which my differ
from others'). this is relevant bc any future solution will be imperfect as I have mentioned before. as Allison and others point out we need to measure the harm done by any new system that may seek to solve one problem (privacy?) and inadvertently create
many more. since this group is fond of analogies I'll contribute one from the medical oath (not sure if this is just U.S.) "first, do no harm".</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">i'll close by saying I think Allison's point about economic value has merit. yes, the point of the WG is not to protect anyone's economic interest. I agree 100%
with that statement and will disagree with anyone who thinks the future of DomainTools or other commercial service should have one iota of impact on this discussion. but I also think "it's too expensive" or "it's too hard" are weak and dangerous excuses when
dealing with an issue like this which has enormous and far reaching consequences for the very mission of ICANN around the security and stability of our internet.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Tim</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:50 PM, allison nixon <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Thanks for the documentation in your earlier email. While I understand that's how things are supposed to work in theory, it's not implemented
very widely, and unless there is enforcement, then it's unlikely to be useful at all.</span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">"</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">as a given, we put ourselves in a certain position in terms of the actions we can and
cannot recommend. We can make similar statements focused on registry operators, registrars, or any other stakeholder in this space. If we all approach this WG's task with the goal of not changing anything, we're all just wasting our time."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br> <br> </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">There are things that people would be willing to change about WHOIS. Changes purely relating to the data format would not be as controversial. Changing to that RDAP json format would probably be an agreeable
point to most here.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">There are two different major points of contention here. The first is the data format, second is the creation of a new monopoly and ceding power to it. By monopoly
I mean- who are the gatekeepers of "gated" access? Will it avoid all of the problems that monopolies are historically prone to? Who will pay them? It seems like a massive leap of faith to commit to this without knowing who we are making the commitment to.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">"I do not believe it is this WG's responsibility to protect anyone's</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">commercial services if those things are basically in response to<br> deficiencies in the existing Whois protocol. "</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">From my understanding of past ICANN working groups, registrars have fought against issues that would have increased their costs. And the destruction of useful
WHOIS results(or becoming beholden to some new monopoly) stand to incur far more costs for far larger industries. So this shouldn't surprise you. If those economic concerns are not valid then I question why the economic concerns of registrars are valid.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">If entire industries are built around a feature you would consider a "deficiency", then your opinion may solely be your own. And I hope more stakeholders in this
multi-stakeholder process will come forward with their own perspectives, as they will differ from mine.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">"Not trying to hamstring the WG. Just asking if this is not something that has already been solved.."</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Hi Paul,</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">It's an interesting thought. This document was recommended to me as one that was approved in the past by the working group that outlined what the resulting system
might look like. I'm still learning and reading about these working groups and what they do, and this document is massive.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-06jun14-en.pdf">https://www.icann.org/en/syste m/files/files/final-report-06j
un14-en.pdf</a></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">In the document, it says: <i>"Central to the remit of the EWG is the question of how to design a system that increases the accuracy of the data collected while also offering protections for those Registrants seeking to guard and maintain their privacy."</i></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">One of the things I notice is that any talk about actually increasing accuracy of whois info- via enforcement- is vigorously opposed in this group, and it's merely
assumed that people will supply better quality data under the new system. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Throughout the document it talks about use-cases and features (whois history, reverse query, etc), which are indeed identical to the features of the whois aggregators
of current day. Such a system would replace them. Will the service quality be as good?</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">On page 63 it gets into thoughts on who would be "accredited" to access the gated whois data. Every proposed scenario seems to recognize the resulting system will
need to handle a large query volume from a large number of people, and one proposes accrediting bodies which may accredit organizations which may accredit individuals. It even proposes an abuse handling system which is also reminiscent in structure to how
abuse is handled currently in our domain name system. Many of these proposed schemes appear to mimic the ways that the hosting industry and registrar industry operate, so we can expect that the patterns of abuse will be equally frequent, especially if higher
quality data is supplied.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">The proposed scenarios all paint a picture of "gated" access with very wide gates, while simultaneously representing to domain purchasers that their data is safe
and privacy protected. And this is supposed to *reduce* the total number of privacy violations? This doesn't even appeal to me as a consumer of this data.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">Whoever sets up this system also stands to inherit a lot of money from the soon-to-be-defunct whois aggregation industry. They would certainly win our contract,
because we would have no choice. All domain reputation services, anti-spam, security research, etc, efforts will all need to pay up. </span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">After being supplied with the above document, I also saw a copy of a rebuttal written by a company that monitors abusive domains. I strongly agree with the sentiments
in this document and I do not see evidence that those concerns have received fair consideration. While I do not see this new gatekeeper as an existential threat, I do see it as a likely degradation in the utility i do see from whois. To be clear, we do not
do any business with this company.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/input-to-ewg/attachments/20130823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommentsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementStructure-0001.pdf">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/
input-to-ewg/attachments/20130 823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt ructure-0001.pdf</a></span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">I also found John Bambenek's point in a later thread to be interesting- concentrating WHOIS knowledge solely to one organization allows the country it resides
in to use it to support its intelligence apparatus, for example monitoring when its espionage domains are queried for, and targeting researchers that query them (since anonymous querying will be revoked). Nation states already use domains in operations so
this monopoly is a perfect strategic data reserve. The fact that this system is pushed by privacy advocates is indeed ironic.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-size:9.5pt" class="size">None of those concerns appear to have been addressed by this group in any serious capacity. Before the addition of new members, I don't think many people had the
backgrounds or skillsets to even understand why they are a concern. But I think this is a discussion worth having at this point in time for this group.</span><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"></span></span><br></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Andrew Sullivan <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><br></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">Hi,<br> <br> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 07:25:47PM +0200, Paul Keating wrote:<br> > Andrew,<br> ><br> > Thank you. That was helpful.<br> ><br> > ""Given this registrant, what other<br> > domains are registered?" is a solved problem, and has been since the<br> > early 2000s.2<br> ><br> > This is also traceable via alternative means such as consistencies in<br> > various WHOIS fields such as email, address, name, etc.<br> <br> Well, sort of. The email, address, and name fields are _user_<br> supplied. So they come from the other party to the transaction. The<br> ROID is assigned by the registry itself. So once you have a match,<br> you know that you are looking at the same object, only the same<br> object, and all the same object(s).<br> <br> Email addresses in particular are guaranteed unique in the world at<br> any given time (though not guaranteed as unique identifiers over<br> time), so they may be useful for these purposes. Take it from someone<br> named "Andrew Sullivan", however, that names are pretty useless as<br> context-free identifiers :)<br> <br> > In reality finding out answers to questions such as<br> > yours (above) requires investigation using a plethora of data.<br> <br> To be clear, finding out the answer to what I (meant to) pose(d)<br> requires no plethora of data: it requires a single query and access to<br> the right repository (the registry). In some theoretical system, the<br> correct underlying database query would be something like this:<br> <br> SELECT domain_roid, domain_name FROM domains WHERE registrant_roid = ?;<br> <br> and you put the correct ROID in where the question mark is, and off<br> you go. That will give you the list of all the domain names, and<br> their relevant ROIDs, registered by a given registrant contact. At<br> least one registry with which I am familiar once had a WHOIS feature<br> that allowed something close to the above, only it would stop after<br> some number of domains so as not to return too much data. I think the<br> default was therefore LIMIT 50, but I also think the feature was<br> eventually eliminated about the time that the ICANN community rejected<br> IRIS as an answer to "the whois problem".<br> <br> What the above will of course not do is help you in the event Bob The<br> Scammer has created dozens of different contacts for himself by (say)<br> registering names through many different registrars. I do not believe<br> that any registry is going to support such a use at least without<br> access controls, because it can be expensive to answer such things.<br> So, what you understood me to be asking, I think, is the question I<br> did _not_ ask: given this human being or organization, what other<br> domains are registered?" That does require a lot of different data,<br> and it requires cross-organizational searches, and it requires sussing<br> out when someone has lied also. Such research is, I agree, completely<br> outside the scope of what any technical system will ever be able to<br> offer reliably.<br> <br> > An entire<br> > industry exists for this purpose and I don1t think we should be<br> > considering replacing what has already been existing in the cyber security<br> > marketplace.<br> <br> I do not believe it is this WG's responsibility to protect anyone's<br> commercial services if those things are basically in response to<br> deficiencies in the existing Whois protocol. In this case, however,<br> that's not the problem. Linking data in multiple databases to a given<br> real-world human being is hard even in systems without competition and<br> multiple points of access. It's always going to require researchers<br> for the domain name system.<br> <br> Best regards.</span></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>A<br> <br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">--</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">Andrew Sullivan</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a></span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">______________________________ _________________</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br> <span class="m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:#888888"></span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">--</span></span><br></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">______________________________ ___<br> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</span></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>______________________________ _________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; 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background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">______________________________ _________________</span></span><br></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"><br>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; 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background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________<br> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;"><span style="background-color:white" class="highlight"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",sans-serif";color:black"> </span></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div><p><br></p></blockquote></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><p><br></p><pre>_______________________________________________<br></pre><pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><p><br></p><pre>-- <br></pre><pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Volker A. Greimann<br></pre><pre>- Rechtsabteilung -<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Key-Systems GmbH<br></pre><pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<br></pre><pre>66386 St. Ingbert<br></pre><pre>Tel.: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><br></pre><pre>Fax.: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><br></pre><pre>Email: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Web: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:<br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin<br></pre><pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <br></pre><pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. 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Greimann<br></pre><pre>- legal department -<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Key-Systems GmbH<br></pre><pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<br></pre><pre>66386 St. Ingbert<br></pre><pre>Tel.: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:+49%206894%209396901">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><br></pre><pre>Fax.: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="tel:+49%206894%209396851">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><br></pre><pre>Email: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Web: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:<br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>CEO: Alexander Siffrin<br></pre><pre>Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <br></pre><pre>V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<br></pre><pre><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre> <br></pre></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br></div><div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div><p><br></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></div></div></div><div>_______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a> <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br></div></blockquote></span></span></span></blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div>