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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In my personal opinion, either of the two suggestions would be business decisions for registrars to make and not recommendations the WG should make.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michele Neylon - Blacknight<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 28, 2017 9:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net>; gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">He’s saying two things:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1 – non-EU registrars should give up selling into the EU<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">2 – EU registrars should stop selling outside the EU<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Of course there’s a multitude of issues with this proposal, but at least it’s an actual fairly concrete “idea” or “strawman”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Mr Michele Neylon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Blacknight Solutions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Hosting, Colocation & Domains<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://www.blacknight.com/">https://www.blacknight.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://blacknight.blog/">http://blacknight.blog/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Personal blog:
<a href="https://michele.blog/">https://michele.blog/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Some thoughts:
<a href="https://ceo.hosting/">https://ceo.hosting/</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">-------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday 28 April 2017 at 11:26<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-GB">So you are asking non-EU registrars to give up on the EU as a place where they can do business?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Am 27.04.2017 um 14:40 schrieb John Horton:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">Thanks, Maxim. But, registrars could restrict the country in the drop-down sign-up menu. I don't think it's necessary to collect information on citizenship; address
(since actually a non-citizen of an EU country domiciled in that EU country likely is entitled to the same protections; I'm not sure that an EU citizen domiciled in Japan is entitled to the same protections, although perhaps there is a way to opt-in). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President and CEO, LegitScript</span><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><img border="0" width="96" height="36" style="width:1.0in;height:.375in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#444444">Follow</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0B5394">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Legit</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0B5394">Script</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">:
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#CC0000">LinkedIn</span></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6AA84F">Facebook</span></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#674EA7">Twitter</span></a>
| <u><span style="color:#FF9900"><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></span></u> |<span style="color:#FF9900"> <a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#FF9900"><img border="0" width="46" height="96" style="width:.4833in;height:1.0in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png"><img border="0" width="47" height="97" style="width:.4916in;height:1.0083in" id="_x0000_i1027" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ"></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:37 AM, Maxim Alzoba <<a href="mailto:m.alzoba@gmail.com" target="_blank">m.alzoba@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hello John , <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">According to current discussions (which, I am sure will be continued during the GDD Summit in Madrid, 9th-11thMay2017), <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Registrars and Registries might not be even aware of the fact that their services were used by EU citizens (situations where the EU citizen is a resident of some non-EU country or has two passports, and one of those is
EU-country passport, which was not presented at the registration stage).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">The issue is, that fines under GDPR are quite hard, being a non-EU company fined by EU Court for 20M EUR of 4% of turnover for a breach is not something many of us can survive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Here arises a need to be able to mark fields of records in RDS as personal data. (to make it machine processable, and who knows, maybe even stored differently).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">P.s: we are in cross control with few Registrars, so we have some degree of understanding of these issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">P.P.s: also GDPR regulates profiling, so collecting some kind of information about EU citizens might fall under it (even when some non-EU company collects data about behavioural patterns of <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">not yet caught potential criminals).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Sincerely Yours,<br>
<br>
Maxim Alzoba<br>
Special projects manager,<br>
International Relations Department,<br>
FAITID<br>
<br>
m. <a href="tel:+7%20916%20676-15-80" target="_blank">+7 916 6761580</a>(+whatsapp)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">skype oldfrogger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Current UTC offset: +3.00 (.Moscow)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Apr 27, 2017, at 15:23, John Horton <<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank">john.horton@legitscript.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">Well, on that note, let me propose a solution to consider. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">Volker and others have pointed out that the EU has some legal requirements pertaining to privacy. As far as I can tell, these generally don't exist elsewhere. (That's
not to say "nowhere," but it's the exception, not the rule.) Let's stipulate, for the sake of argument, that registrars in those countries have to adhere to those laws. However, the purpose of privacy laws in Germany, France or Sweden are to protect the citizens
of those countries -- not registrants in other countries. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">As a trade-off, it seems reasonable to me to explore a solution where EU registrars agree to forego accepting domain name registrations from outside their own jurisdiction.
We can then have a bi-furcated system -- this should only apply to registrants using the domain name for non-commercial reasons, by the way, since the privacy laws only apply to individuals, not corporations -- where, say, a German citizen can register with
Key-Systems (for example) and enjoy whatever data protections Key-Systems feels that it needs to implement. (Volker, I'm not picking on you here, I'm just using you as an EU-based example.) It's incredibly easy to implement technically: just restrict the available
countries in the drop-down menu during registration to a single country. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">After all, as a US citizen, why should I -- or a Chinese citizen, or a Brazilian citizen -- have the right to avail myself of the privacy protections afforded by the
German government to German citizens? Those aren't meant for me. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">And, after all, why should privacy protections that apply to a minority of the world's population force a global change everywhere?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">I'd be interested to hear from registrars whether, in exchange for being able to implement rigorous privacy protections for domain names used for non-commercial purposes,
they would be willing to forego accepting registrations from outside of their own jurisdiction (or, perhaps, the EU). This would allow Volker and others to comply with their own laws but in a minimally disruptive way. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President and CEO, LegitScript</span><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><img border="0" width="96" height="36" style="width:1.0in;height:.375in" id="_x0000_i1028" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#444444">Follow</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0B5394">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Legit<span style="color:#0B5394">Script</span></span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">:
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#CC0000">LinkedIn</span></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6AA84F">Facebook</span></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#674EA7">Twitter</span></a>
| <u><span style="color:#FF9900"><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com/" target="_blank">Blog</a></span></u> |<span style="color:#FF9900"> <a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#FF9900"><img border="0" width="46" height="96" style="width:.4833in;height:1.0in" id="_x0000_i1029" src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png"><img border="0" width="47" height="95" style="width:.4916in;height:.9916in" id="_x0000_i1030" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ"></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:45 AM, Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">re: the repeated suggestion of “opt in registration for public WHOIS”. It bears repeating what was said to us by the Data Protection Commissioners in Copenhagen; consent is not a waiver for disproportionate or unlawful
processing. You cannot ask a data subject to consent to something which is unlawful. <span style="color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001hoenzb">Ayden Férdeline</span></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#888888"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline" target="_blank" title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">-------- Original Message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Local Time: 27 April 2017 12:36 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">UTC Time: 27 April 2017 11:36<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">From: <a href="mailto:Paul@law.es" target="_blank">
Paul@law.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>>, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>,
Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530font"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">"</span></span><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530font"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:-webkit-standard;background:white">Privacy
laws in one part of the world are a factor we need to be aware of, among other factors. </span></span><span lang="EN-GB">“<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530font"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:-webkit-standard;background:#FFFEFE">This seems to be the entire driving force behind considering a more restrictive (gated) access to WHOIS.
If there are other reasons please let me know.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:#FEFDFD">Also, I have yet to see any legal authority that precludes:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:#FDFCFC">Opt in registration for public WHOIS</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:#FCFBFB">For those not desiring a public WHOIS record, then the ability to use a recognized privacy service so as to “anchor" the registration
of the domain</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:#FBF9F9">If one does exist can someone point me to the </span></span><span lang="EN-GB">link?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">A balancing of needs is important here. Seems to me that the competing interests here are not simply privacy vs. public access. There are the private interests of those who regularly use the current WHOIS data set for
any variety of purposes including:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Security research and prevention<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Law enforcement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Highjacking recovery<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Private transactions (confirmation of current and historical ownership)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Lending and financing transactions (confirmation of ownership to support security interests)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Providing WHOIS and other data services to others<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Michele Blacknight <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 9:21 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Cc:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Greg</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">As a business owner I need to make sure that I’m not exposing myself or
the company to unnecessary risk.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">While big corporations might be comfortable spending large amounts of money
on “creative” tax arrangements that isn’t really an option for smaller companies like ourselves.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Regards</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">Michele</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">--</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Mr Michele Neylon</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Blacknight Solutions</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Hosting, Colocation & Domains</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://www.blacknight.com/" target="_blank">https://www.blacknight.com/</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530colour"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://blacknight.blog/</span></span></a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530colour"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://ceo.hosting/</span></span></a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Intl.
<a href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203072" target="_blank">+353 (0) 59 9183072</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Direct Dial:
<a href="tel:+353%2059%20918%203090" target="_blank">+353 (0)59 9183090</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">-------------------------------</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-GB">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday 26 April 2017 at 23:38<br>
<b>To: </b>Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">We also need to be very clear about the limits of the legal requirements of applicable law, and the various options available for dealing with the law. There's
no need to overcomply. Indeed it would be quite unreasonable to do so. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Just as paying the lowest calculable income tax is perfectly legitimate, so is complying with the law in the least disruptive way possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Greg Shatan</span></b></span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
</span></b><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">C:
<a href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" target="_blank">917-816-6428</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">S: gsshatan</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">Phone-to-Skype: <a href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a></span><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I wish it were so simple. "Doing harm" is not necessary to be in violation with applicable law. Just like jaywalking, speeding on an empty road or crossing a red light carries a
fine regardless of whether harm was done, privacy law too does not care about an actual harm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We need to be very clear about the legal requirements when we define the limits of what can be done with the data we collect, and by whom.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Volker<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Am 26.04.2017 um 18:43 schrieb John Horton:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Greg, well said. And Tim, well said. And I'll strongly +1 Michael Hammer as well. I agree with the "do no harm" philosophy -- I'm not convinced that some of the
proposed changes (e.g., those outlined in the EWG report) wouldn't cause more harm than the existing, admittedly imperfect, system. As I've said before, the importance of tools like Reverse Whois isn't only direct -- it's derivative as well. (If you enjoy
the benefits of those of us who fight payment fraud, online abuse and other sorts of malfeasance, you have reverse Whois among other tools to thank.) Privacy laws in one part of the world are a factor we need to be aware of, among other factors. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:07 AM nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white">+1</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white">Nathalie </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white">On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:02 PM, Victoria Sheckler <<a href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" target="_blank">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">+1</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Sent from my iPhone</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">On Apr 26, 2017, at 8:56 AM, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Thanks for weighing in, Tim. Since this is a multi<u>stakeholder</u> process, everyone is assumed to come in with a point of view, so don't be shy.
At the same time, if stakeholders cling dogmatically to their points of view the multistakeholder model doesn't work.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">As for being out on a limb:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We haven't decided what data will be "private" and for which registrants (e.g., based on geography or entity status)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3;background:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We haven't decided there will be "gated" access and what that might mean, both for policy and practicality<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3;background:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The question shouldn't be whether we will be "allowing third parties access to harvest, repackage and republish that data," but how we should allow this in a way that balances various
concerns. Eliminating reverse Whois and other such services is not a goal of this Working Group.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Our job should be to provide the greatest possible access to the best possible data, consistent with minimizing risk under reasonable interpretations
of applicable law. We need to deal with existing and incoming privacy laws (and with other laws) as well, but not in a worshipful manner; instead it should be in a solution-oriented manner. This is not, after all, the Privacy Working Group. I'll +1 Michael
Hammer: </span></span><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Rather than starting from a model of justifying everything and anything from a privacy perspective, I would suggest
that it would be much more appropriate, other than technical changes such as moving towards using JSON, to require justification and consensus for any changes from the existing model(s) of WHOIS.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Finally, while our purpose is not to maintain anyone's economic interest, economic interests may well be aligned with policy interests.
Assuming that economic interests are at odds with policy interests is just as dangerous as assuming that policy interests are served by maximizing economic interests.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Greg</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<a name="m_-9181686807702573001_m_-87946099550229"></a><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white">Greg Shatan</span></b></span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white"><br>
</span></b><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white">C:
<a href="tel:%28917%29%20816-6428" target="_blank">917-816-6428</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;background:white"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">S: gsshatan</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">Phone-to-Skype: <a href="tel:%28646%29%20845-9428" target="_blank">646-845-9428</a></span><br>
</span><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></span></a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Dotzero <<a href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" target="_blank">dotzero@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Adding to what Tim and Allison wrote.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">As a starting point, I've had an account with DomainTools in the past and will likely have one in the future, although I don't currently have one.
</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">There are other organizations and individuals which consume/aggregate whois data so I don't think that for the purposes of this discussion the focus should be on just DomainTools. I know researchers
and academics who use this data to analyze all sorts of things. As has been pointed out, there are all sorts of folks staking out positions because of their economic (and other) interests without necessarily being transparent about those interests.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">It should be remembered that the Internet is an agglomeration of many networks and resources, some public and some private. At the same time, it is
simply a bunch of technical standards that people and organizations have agreed to use to interact with each other. In many cases, the ultimate solution to abuse is to drop route. To the extent that good and granular information is not readily available, regular
(innocent) users may suffer as owners and administrators of resources act to protect those resources and their legitimate users from abuse and maliciousness. The reality is that most users of the internet utilize a relatively small subset of all the resources
out there. For some, a service like Facebook IS the Internet.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">It may also incite a tendency towards returning to a model of walled gardens. At various points I have heard discussions about the balkanization of the internet, with things like separate roots,
etc. People should think very carefully about what they are asking for because they may not be happy with it if they actually get it.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Rather than starting from a model of justifying everything and anything from a privacy perspective, I would suggest that it would be much more appropriate,
other than technical changes such as moving towards using JSON, to require justification and consensus for any changes from the existing model(s) of WHOIS.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Michael Hammer</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:27 AM, allison nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Thank you for your email Tim.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Full disclosure(because I believe in being transparent about this sort of thing), we do business with Domaintools and use their tools to consume whois
data.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">"i'll close by saying I think Allison's point about economic value has merit. yes, the point of the WG is not to protect anyone's economic interest.
I agree 100% with that statement and will disagree with anyone who thinks the future of DomainTools or other commercial service should have one iota of impact on this discussion."</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">I will however disagree vehemently with you on this point. It is obvious that many of the arguments to cut off anonymous querying to WHOIS data are
economically motivated. Financial concerns are cited numerous times in approved documents. I also believe the "vetting" process is likely to become a new revenue stream for someone as well. A revenue stream with HIGHLY questionable privacy value-add.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Every dollar of income for the Domaintools company and others like it come from their clients, who see a multiplier of value from it. That means for
every dollar spent on the entire whois aggregator industry means that a much larger amount of money is saved through prevented harms like fraud, abuse, and even fake medications which kill people.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">I think it is extremely important to identify what critical systems rely on whois (either directly or downstream), and determine if we are ready to
give up the utility of these systems.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">We also need to identify the value of the ability to anonymously query whois and what that loss of privacy will mean as well. While I obviously do
not make many queries anonymously(although our vendor has their own privacy policy), I understand this is important especially to those researching more dangerous actors. Why would $_COUNTRY dissidents want to query domains when their opponents would surely
be hacking into the audit logs for this?</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">On Apr 25, 2017 11:41 PM, "Chen, Tim" <<a href="mailto:tim@domaintools.com" target="_blank">tim@domaintools.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">"And I hope more stakeholders in this multi-stakeholder process will come forward with their own perspectives, as they will differ from
mine."</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">happy to do so. DomainTools is clearly a stakeholder in this debate. and we have a fair amount of experience around the challenges, benefits
and risks of whois data aggregation at scale. </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">from the beginning of this EWG/RDS idea we've stood down bc i didn't believe our opinion would be seen as objective-enough given our line
of business. but it is apparent to me having followed this debate for many weeks now, that this is a working group of individuals who all bring their own biases into the debate. whether they care to admit that to themselves or not. so we might as well wade
in too. bc I think our experience is very relevant to the discussion.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">i'll do my best to be as objective as I can, as a domain registrant myself and as an informed industry participant.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">since our experience is working with security minded organizations, that is the context with which I will comment. </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">since this is an ICANN working group, I start with the ICANN mission statement around the security and stability of the DNS. I find myself
wanting to fit this debate to that as the north star. i do not see the RDS as purpose driven to fit the GDPR or any region-specific legal resolution. but I do see those as important inputs to our discussion.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">from a security perspective, my experience is that the benefits of the current Whois model, taken with this lens, far outweigh the costs.
again, I can only speak from my experience here at DomainTools, and obviously under the current Whois regime. This is not to say it cannot be improved. From a data accuracy perspective alone there is enormous room for improvement as I think we can all agree.
every day I see the tangible benefits to security interests, which for the most part are "doing good", from the work that we do. when I compare that to the complaints that we get bc "my PII is visible in your data", it's not even close by my value barometer
(which my differ from others'). this is relevant bc any future solution will be imperfect as I have mentioned before. as Allison and others point out we need to measure the harm done by any new system that may seek to solve one problem (privacy?) and inadvertently
create many more. since this group is fond of analogies I'll contribute one from the medical oath (not sure if this is just U.S.) "first, do no harm".</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">i'll close by saying I think Allison's point about economic value has merit. yes, the point of the WG is not to protect anyone's economic
interest. I agree 100% with that statement and will disagree with anyone who thinks the future of DomainTools or other commercial service should have one iota of impact on this discussion. but I also think "it's too expensive" or "it's too hard" are weak
and dangerous excuses when dealing with an issue like this which has enormous and far reaching consequences for the very mission of ICANN around the security and stability of our internet.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Tim</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:50 PM, allison nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Thanks for the documentation in your earlier email. While I understand that's how things are supposed to work in theory, it's not implemented very
widely, and unless there is enforcement, then it's unlikely to be useful at all.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">"</span></span><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">as a given,
we put ourselves in a certain position in terms of the actions we can and cannot recommend. We can make similar statements focused on registry operators, registrars, or any other stakeholder in this space. If we all approach this WG's task with the goal of
not changing anything, we're all just wasting our time."</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
</span><span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">There are things that people would be willing to change about WHOIS. Changes purely relating to the data format would not be as controversial.
Changing to that RDAP json format would probably be an agreeable point to most here.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">There are two different major points of contention here. The first is the data format, second is the creation of a new monopoly and ceding
power to it. By monopoly I mean- who are the gatekeepers of "gated" access? Will it avoid all of the problems that monopolies are historically prone to? Who will pay them? It seems like a massive leap of faith to commit to this without knowing who we are making
the commitment to.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">"I do not believe it is this WG's responsibility to protect anyone's</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">commercial services if those things are basically in response to</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size">deficiencies in the existing Whois protocol. "</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">From my understanding of past ICANN working groups, registrars have fought against issues that would have increased their costs. And the
destruction of useful WHOIS results(or becoming beholden to some new monopoly) stand to incur far more costs for far larger industries. So this shouldn't surprise you. If those economic concerns are not valid then I question why the economic concerns of registrars
are valid.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">If entire industries are built around a feature you would consider a "deficiency", then your opinion may solely be your own. And I hope
more stakeholders in this multi-stakeholder process will come forward with their own perspectives, as they will differ from mine.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">"Not trying to hamstring the WG. Just asking if this is not something that has already been solved.."</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Hi Paul,</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">It's an interesting thought. This document was recommended to me as one that was approved in the past by the working group that outlined
what the resulting system might look like. I'm still learning and reading about these working groups and what they do, and this document is massive.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white"><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-06jun14-en.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/syste m/files/files/final-report-06j
un14-en.pdf</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">In the document, it says:
<i>"Central to the remit of the EWG is the question of how to design a system that increases the accuracy of the data collected while also offering protections for those Registrants seeking to guard and maintain their privacy."</i></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">One of the things I notice is that any talk about actually increasing accuracy of whois info- via enforcement- is vigorously opposed in
this group, and it's merely assumed that people will supply better quality data under the new system. </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Throughout the document it talks about use-cases and features (whois history, reverse query, etc), which are indeed identical to the features
of the whois aggregators of current day. Such a system would replace them. Will the service quality be as good?</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">On page 63 it gets into thoughts on who would be "accredited" to access the gated whois data. Every proposed scenario seems to recognize
the resulting system will need to handle a large query volume from a large number of people, and one proposes accrediting bodies which may accredit organizations which may accredit individuals. It even proposes an abuse handling system which is also reminiscent in
structure to how abuse is handled currently in our domain name system. Many of these proposed schemes appear to mimic the ways that the hosting industry and registrar industry operate, so we can expect that the patterns of abuse will be equally frequent, especially
if higher quality data is supplied.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">The proposed scenarios all paint a picture of "gated" access with very wide gates, while simultaneously representing to domain purchasers
that their data is safe and privacy protected. And this is supposed to *reduce* the total number of privacy violations? This doesn't even appeal to me as a consumer of this data.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">Whoever sets up this system also stands to inherit a lot of money from the soon-to-be-defunct whois aggregation industry. They would certainly
win our contract, because we would have no choice. All domain reputation services, anti-spam, security research, etc, efforts will all need to pay up. </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">After being supplied with the above document, I also saw a copy of a rebuttal written by a company that monitors abusive domains. I strongly
agree with the sentiments in this document and I do not see evidence that those concerns have received fair consideration. While I do not see this new gatekeeper as an existential threat, I do see it as a likely degradation in the utility i do see from whois.
To be clear, we do not do any business with this company.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white"><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/input-to-ewg/attachments/20130823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommentsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementStructure-0001.pdf" target="_blank">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/
input-to-ewg/attachments/20130 823/410038bb/LegitScriptCommen tsonICANNEWGWhoisReplacementSt ructure-0001.pdf</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">I also found John Bambenek's point in a later thread to be interesting- concentrating WHOIS knowledge solely to one organization allows
the country it resides in to use it to support its intelligence apparatus, for example monitoring when its espionage domains are queried for, and targeting researchers that query them (since anonymous querying will be revoked). Nation states already use domains
in operations so this monopoly is a perfect strategic data reserve. The fact that this system is pushed by privacy advocates is indeed ironic.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530size"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.5pt;background:white">None of those concerns appear to have been addressed by this group in any serious capacity. Before the addition of new members, I don't
think many people had the backgrounds or skillsets to even understand why they are a concern. But I think this is a discussion worth having at this point in time for this group.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Andrew Sullivan <<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>> wrote:</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">Hi,</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 07:25:47PM +0200, Paul Keating wrote:</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> Andrew,</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> Thank you. That was helpful.</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> ""Given this registrant, what other</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> domains are registered?" is a solved problem, and has been since the</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> early 2000s.2</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> This is also traceable via alternative means such as consistencies in</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> various WHOIS fields such as email, address, name, etc.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Well, sort of. The email, address, and name fields are _user_</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">supplied. So they come from the other party to the transaction. The</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">ROID is assigned by the registry itself. So once you have a match,</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">you know that you are looking at the same object, only the same</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">object, and all the same object(s).</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Email addresses in particular are guaranteed unique in the world at</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">any given time (though not guaranteed as unique identifiers over</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">time), so they may be useful for these purposes. Take it from someone</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">named "Andrew Sullivan", however, that names are pretty useless as</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">context-free identifiers :)</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> In reality finding out answers to questions such as</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> yours (above) requires investigation using a plethora of data.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">To be clear, finding out the answer to what I (meant to) pose(d)</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">requires no plethora of data: it requires a single query and access to</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">the right repository (the registry). In some theoretical system, the</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">correct underlying database query would be something like this:</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"> SELECT domain_roid, domain_name FROM domains WHERE registrant_roid = ?;</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">and you put the correct ROID in where the question mark is, and off</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">you go. That will give you the list of all the domain names, and</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">their relevant ROIDs, registered by a given registrant contact. At</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">least one registry with which I am familiar once had a WHOIS feature</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">that allowed something close to the above, only it would stop after</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">some number of domains so as not to return too much data. I think the</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">default was therefore LIMIT 50, but I also think the feature was</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">eventually eliminated about the time that the ICANN community rejected</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">IRIS as an answer to "the whois problem".</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">What the above will of course not do is help you in the event Bob The</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Scammer has created dozens of different contacts for himself by (say)</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">registering names through many different registrars. I do not believe</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">that any registry is going to support such a use at least without</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">access controls, because it can be expensive to answer such things.</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">So, what you understood me to be asking, I think, is the question I</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">did _not_ ask: given this human being or organization, what other</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">domains are registered?" That does require a lot of different data,</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">and it requires cross-organizational searches, and it requires sussing</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">out when someone has lied also. Such research is, I agree, completely</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">outside the scope of what any technical system will ever be able to</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">offer reliably.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> An entire</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> industry exists for this purpose and I don1t think we should be</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> considering replacing what has already been existing in the cyber security</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">> marketplace.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">I do not believe it is this WG's responsibility to protect anyone's</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">commercial services if those things are basically in response to</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">deficiencies in the existing Whois protocol. In this case, however,</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">that's not the problem. Linking data in multiple databases to a given</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">real-world human being is hard even in systems without competition and</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">multiple points of access. It's always going to require researchers</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">for the domain name system.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Best regards.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">A</span><br>
<br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">--</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">Andrew Sullivan</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">______________________________ _________________</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530m-6028739752990097634m-7057533978763232585m7951444643704396651yiv5387804389m615767156484145872m-1989214556801852688m-7832141262075475097hoenzb"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l
istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">--</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white">______________________________ ___</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background:white"><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/ listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br>
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<span class="m-9181686807702573001m-8794609955022991530highlight"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre><span lang="EN-GB">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">- Rechtsabteilung -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net/" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.rrpproxy.net/" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.brandshelter.com/" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu/" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">--------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">- legal department -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net/" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.rrpproxy.net/" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.brandshelter.com/" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">CEO: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu/" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">_______________________________________________
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">_______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">_______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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<pre><span lang="EN-GB">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="EN-GB">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">- Rechtsabteilung -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">--------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">- legal department -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">CEO: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
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