<html><body><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>John,</div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div>You are entirely wrong in your statement : <span style="color: #000000; font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;" data-mce-style="color: #000000; font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer.</span></div><div><br></div><div>Yet many of the largest and paid service allow you to edit just that record as the consumer.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div data-marker="__SIG_PRE__">Kind regards,<br><br>Chris</div><br><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><b>From: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br><b>To: </b>"Paul Keating" <paul@law.es><br><b>Cc: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, 31 May, 2017 15:14:53<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access<br></div><br><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div>Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer. I would bet a very rare set of consumers who own domains actually run their own DNS servers. They are either using the registrar or their hosting provider. </div><br><div>Sure they put in the data. But that is also true of whois/rds. No one does this for the consumer. They put in all their own data. Considering the number of domains under the control of various registrars that still accept all 0s for phone number, no one verifies that data either. </div><br><div>This does, however, reinforce that making whois for free solves almost all of this issue. If consumers have a true choice that's free and the choices are explained, all of these privacy issues almost completely are resolved. </div><br><div>J<br><br><div>Sent from my iPhone</div></div><div><br>On May 31, 2017, at 08:38, Paul Keating <<a href="mailto:paul@law.es" target="_blank">paul@law.es</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div>+1!<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 31 May 2017, at 11:38, Victoria Sheckler <<a href="mailto:vsheckler@riaa.com" target="_blank">vsheckler@riaa.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">+1</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Sullivan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Pelling <<a href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">chris@netearth.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is a pretty strained example, since the RDS is irrelevant here. You can get the SOAs in the examples as soon as you know the domain name. You have no need to consult RDS at all. And the SOA is completely under the control of the
DNS operator, and in the absence of Internet Protocol Police you can put whatever you want in there for your own zones. No real dns admin has trusted that field for years. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This repetitious and always fruitless discussion of whether anyone can get any data to "abuse" out of the thin data seems to miss the point of why we started with thin data: it was supposed to be easy. I've yet to hear even one remotely
plausible issue with respect to any of this data, because it's all needed by virtue of creating a name space on the Internet. That's what domain name registrations do, so if you don't want to expose this much data you shouldn't register domain names. Unless
someone can come up with a single concrete example of something problematic, I'd like us to move on to a topic where there's some substance to discuss. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">A</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Andrew Sullivan </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Please excuse my clumbsy thums. </p>
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On May 30, 2017, at 17:22, Chris Pelling <<a href="mailto:chris@netearth.net" target="_blank">chris@netearth.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">ok - a thought :</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Thin data includes nameservers, being able to
<strong><span data-mce-style="text-decoration: underline;" style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">mass</span></span></strong> collect thin data gaining NS information then allows you to do a DIG of a SOA record on the DNS service to gain the email address of the hostmaster :
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Some examples (radomly picked from the list) :</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a> :</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">SOA
<a href="http://ns1.google.com" target="_blank">ns1.google.com</a>. <a href="http://dns-admin.google.com" target="_blank">
dns-admin.google.com</a>. 157458041 900 900 1800 60<br>
<a href="http://netearthone.com" target="_blank">netearthone.com</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">SOA
<a href="http://ns1.netearth.net" target="_blank">ns1.netearth.net</a>. <a href="http://root.netearthone.com" target="_blank">
root.netearthone.com</a>. 2016090201 14400 3600 1209600 86400</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://law.es" target="_blank">law.es</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">SOA
<a href="http://ns1.eurodns.com" target="_blank">ns1.eurodns.com</a>. <a href="http://hostmaster.eurodns.com" target="_blank">
hostmaster.eurodns.com</a>. 2016061402 43200 7200 1209600 86400</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://riskiq.net" target="_blank">riskiq.net</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">SOA
<a href="http://ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk" target="_blank">ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk</a>. <a href="http://awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com" target="_blank">
awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com</a>. 1 7200 900 1209600 86400</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Now as you can see - those above examples allow you to get (or build) an email list. Most will normally point to the providers service, but, some that are DIY'ing their hosting,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Kind regards,<br>
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Chris</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">"allison nixon" <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"nathalie coupet" <<a href="mailto:nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com" target="_blank">nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, 30 May, 2017 21:52:32<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">so can you name one specific example of how someone could abuse thin data?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Abuse</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> is the improper usage or treatment of an </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity" target="_blank" title="Entity"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white">entity</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">,
often to </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_justice" target="_blank" title="Distributive justice"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white">unfairly</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> or
improperly gain benefit. In our context, abuse is the improper usage of WHOIS/RDS to unfairly or improperly gain access to information or to game the system. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Here are some of the overarching principles which should guide us when building RDS: </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">DATA LIFECYCLE PRIVACY PRINCIPLE PROTECTION MEASURE</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Collection Proportionality and purpose specification Data minimisation, Data quality</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Storage Accountability, Security measures, Sensitive data Confidentiality, Encryption, Pseudonomisation</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Sharing and processing Lawfulness and fairness, Consent, Right of access Data access control, Data leakage prevention</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Deletion Openness, Right to erasure Retention, Archival, Erasure</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">If such principles are not respected, ICANN will be liable. Consumers don't need to have all the thin data when making a query. This could
protect them and enable them to have access to the RDS without raising much opposition. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Now, we could discuss the possibility for broader query types. These principles would still apply, but would be contextualized in order
to take into account new sets of parameters for each broader query. By increasing granularity as much as possible, while applying these aformentioned principles, we just might find a way to accomodate everyone. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Nathalie </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:00 PM, John Horton <<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank">john.horton@legitscript.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#444444">I was going to reply to Natalie's email as well, but Paul's comments capture my thoughts, so:
<b>+1. </b></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President and CEO, LegitScript</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Paul Keating <<a href="mailto:paul@law.es" target="_blank">paul@law.es</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Natalie,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for the email. Im copying the list because i see others have replied to your comment.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I strenuously object to the concept. We are discussing THIN DATA ONLY HERE. Unless someone can explain to me why any of this data set has privacy concerns
this is a non-issue. I would certainly appreciate someone explaining what, if any, privacy issues are perceived to be at issue here.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Moreover, while you suggest that the idea escapes the need to declare a purpose, it does nothing but reinforce a subjective criteria based system in which
the declared purpose is used to somehow limit the data being retrieved.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">If i am missing something please let me know. </span></p>
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Paul</span></p>
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Sent from my iPad</span></p>
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On 30 May 2017, at 21:08, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Hi Paul,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">In the context of thin data, in view of the opposition of some to allow unauthenticated access to all the thin data, the principle of
proportionality serves as an over-arching principle at this particular phase in our work in order to protect data from abuse while not restricting access. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thin data must be proportionate to the query, be useful for that particular query. All and any other thin data foreign to this query
should not be shared. This principle potentially avoids having to resort to 'legitimate purposes' which cannot be verified for unauthenticated access. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Nathalie </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:44 PM, "Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Because Nathalie was the originator and was unable to speak on the call, I encourage her to describe the nature of the issue on this
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Chuck</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann. org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Keating<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Lisa Phifer <<a href="mailto:lisa@corecom.com" target="_blank">lisa@corecom.com</a>>; RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Im sorry to have missed the call but had a client engagement.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Can someone briefly describe the nature of the issue?</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Paul</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@ icann.org</a>> on behalf of Lisa Phifer <<a href="mailto:lisa@corecom.com" target="_blank">lisa@corecom.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:52 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>RDS PDP WG <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">All, per today's call action item:<br>
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<b>Action Item: Nathalie Coupet and any other WG members who wish to do so to propose to the WG list a new principle on proportionality for "thin data." All WG members to comment on that proposed principle in advance of next call.<br>
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</b>we are starting a new thread here which anyone may reply to if they wish to propose (or respond to) a new principle on proportionality for "thin data" access.<br>
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Best, Lisa</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">______________________________ _________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">_________________________________<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</span></p>
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