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<p>I disagree with your premise that I need to prove something is
strictly necessary in the context of this conversation. It is not
strictly necessary for the operation of the internet that there is
anti-spam at all. It is not strictly necessary that security
researchers stop criminals for the operation of the internet. The
internet will still work. What we ARE talking about here is that
the balance of harms is clearly on the side of us that taking away
our tools and visibility makes the situation worse, not better.</p>
<p>Everyone likes talking about anti-abuse and spam here, but can
someone find me one single anti-spam entity that agrees with you
that we need to restrict thin data? I mean, just one, anywhere in
the world. <br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/1/2017 11:39 AM, Volker Greimann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:aaa04e59-d3f1-107f-be84-de919101a43a@key-systems.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>I am not saying that publishing the creation date is screwing
over people, I merely pointed out that it is currently being
used for that very purpose. Domain registrant are getting
conned, abused and worse because that data point is being used
(in connection with other data points) This data point allows
this abuse to be much more targeted and therefore successful.<br>
</p>
<p> I am sure there are other purposes that it is being used for
as well, some honorable, some useful, some neutral to the
overall state of the universe, but in the end I merely asked if
it was stricly necessary for the purpose of the operation of the
internet, without making any assumption on other yet to be
defined purposes.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 01.06.2017 um 18:34 schrieb John
Bambenek:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:082F30A8-494B-4894-A058-55360459A384@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<div>Because you a priori invalidate all our data and use cases
as irrelevant. The operations of the internet are more
complicated than mere transferring a domain for registrar to
operator. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">I gave you an example of using
creation date as a factor in filtering. You immediately
labeled it as screwing over people. Do you really expect me to
keep jumping through your hoops? I mean I am just a mere
self-proclaimed security researcher. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Jun 1, 2017, at 11:22, Volker Greimann <<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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charset=utf-8">
<p>Note that I did not say "a need" in general, but
specifically "a need for the purpose of the operationality
of the internet". I have not seen any convincing use cases
for that need for these three data points.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>VG<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 01.06.2017 um 18:19 schrieb
John Bambenek:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1B1715F8-A3D1-43F6-8692-FF6C9A711376@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<div>The people who are engaged daily on anti-abuse are
saying yes. Why are those who are not engaged in
anti-abuse so eager to tell us what we need or don't
need in doing our jobs? How many ways and use cases do
we have to present until its accepted that, yes, the
anti-abuse community needs this?<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Jun 1, 2017, at 04:25, Volker Greimann <<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Even if there if no PII in thin data (and I am
leaning to that direction myself), if there really a
need for all these fields to be public for the
purpose of the operationality of the internet? I am
thinking of the created, updated and expiration
dates in particular since those are the ones leading
to the most abusive use.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.05.2017 um 19:22
schrieb jonathan matkowsky:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALsyHBmXspdsbqXZ046LZbgS9Di5b9OAL7nsn=By8TMnRRJ9Rg@mail.gmail.com">
<div>Thin Whois data doesn't have PII - We were
saying that for registration DETAILS that can be
queried from the existence of a domain name (which
are NOT in thin Whois data), the way to deal with
that is informed consent. The thin Whois data is
cross-referenced against the domain name that was
created. The domain itself exists. We very much
can say that there is no PII in thin Whois data
for domain names. DNS queries and SOA records are
not part of this working group. And the fact you
can use the Whois PROTOCOL to query RIRs also has
nothing whatsoever to do with the Whois DATABASE,
especially thin Whois. We can still be privacy
champions without turning everything into a
privacy concern, especially where none exists. The
privacy issues to the extent they do exist, are
not within the subject matter at issue. And
therefore, there is simply no proportionality
principle that need be applied here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, 31 May 2017 at 20:10 Michael
Peddemors <<a
href="mailto:michael@linuxmagic.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">michael@linuxmagic.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">On 17-05-31 10:07 AM,
allison nixon wrote:<br>
> the rest of it can't be. You can't put a
DNS query behind a EULA. We<br>
> can't pretend there are restrictions on
this data.<br>
><br>
<br>
We aren't discussing DNS or any other places
that data is available as<br>
part of this working group. Only the informed
consent of data held in<br>
whois thin data.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">jonathan
matkowsky, vp - ip & head of global brand
threat mitigation</div>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
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--------------------------------------------
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</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
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Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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