<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>maybe you can help me understand your position then. We know
there is abuse of this data. We all agree that access should be
possible for the public. Where is the harm of gating the access to
the data that is being abused to mitigate some of that abuse? <br>
</p>
<p>You continue to oppose gating yet you provide no argument to
support that opinion. <br>
</p>
<p>Where is the harm? I just do not see it. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 07.06.2017 um 11:53 schrieb Paul
Keating:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0F5FD337-09DE-48FF-AF07-76028FF2D513@law.es">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>Volker,</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">I'm sorry but i don't follow the
logic behind your position. Why is it suddenly ok to have
authenticated access? Again, there seems to be an attempt to
control information based upon an ever changing rationale.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">I continue to oppose any
authentication or other gating of thin data.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On 7 Jun 2017, at 10:31, Volker Greimann <<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Jonathan,</p>
<p>and I have no issue with the public being able to get that
information. Still, there is no reason why the requester
should not authenticate himself when making that inquiry.
Remember the access levels do not block access, they just
require further authentification. So the public would be
able to find out when a domain is expected to become
available. This is no argument against gated access.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 07.06.2017 um 11:23 schrieb
jonathan matkowsky:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALsyHBkZtLeHbxJXFSe4X=kfZ4jtKy+33wLnn443UhLY2j9eMw@mail.gmail.com">
<div>The public has the right to know when a domain is
expected to become available. They might need to place a
backorder. All UDRPs require the provider to check whether
the domain is set to expire during the proceeding. The
fake renewal notices and SEO scams will continue based on
the existence of the domain. I have seen countless such
scams where the domain is not set to expire for years, and
where it wasn't even recently created--which supports
keeping the creation and expiration dates ungated so that
companies can verify that the scams are not bona fide.</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, 7 Jun 2017 at 11:54 Volker Greimann <<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> It is
remarkable how much of the spam that we see on a
regular basis that is tied to the domain lifecycle.
Fake renewal notices, SEO offers, the lot. <br>
Anything that would reduce this is a basis for
restricting access somewhat. I do not really see any
harm in such restrictions either.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Volker</div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_1381224760868507598moz-cite-prefix">Am
07.06.2017 um 10:27 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>There is no basis for restricting ungated
access any more so than the domain's existence
or the string of characters registered.</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, 7 Jun 2017 at 11:22 Volker
Greimann <<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I have no
objections against having this data
available and accessible.<br>
The question is whether it should be as
accessible as it is now or<br>
whether there could be certain restrictions.
A tiered access system as<br>
has been proposed would solve this
beautifully.<br>
<br>
In this case, the dates would be on the
second tier (the first tier<br>
being full unhindered access), which would
entail some form of<br>
authentification and bulk access
restrictions. Every single one of the<br>
uses Andrew desribes would remain possible
and unproblematic, but the<br>
data would no longer be in as much danger of
being abused as it is today.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 06.06.2017 um 22:07 schrieb Michael
Peddemors:<br>
> +1 as well..<br>
><br>
> .. but with so many +1's on having that
data publicly accessible, it<br>
> would be interesting to take a straw
poll, to a wider audience on that<br>
> simple question..<br>
><br>
> It would be also nice to see what
category the parties in each camp<br>
> lie? We know that everyone involved in
making the internet a safer and<br>
> better place (security companies, law
enforcement et al) want it<br>
> available, and to define 'thin data' as
wide as possible, and I can<br>
> understand that some consideration to
privacy be considered so that it<br>
> doesn't go too wide, but not really
certain I understand the position<br>
> of those that want it as 'thin' as
possible, or non-existant, and/or<br>
> the parties behind that position and
their numbers.<br>
><br>
> And of course the ever present question
for both camps, is the opinion<br>
> coming from a place where there are
financial motivations (not that<br>
> necessarily there is anything wrong
with that <sic>) that have formed<br>
> the basis of that opinion. (eg, if the
money equation was removed,<br>
> would you still have that opinion, or
even be in the conversation?)<br>
><br>
> For all we know, the privacy camp are
in very small numbers in this<br>
> conversation, and while they might hold
legitimate positions, maybe it<br>
> isn't enough to affect the
directions/positions of ICANN as a group<br>
> going forward.<br>
><br>
> And IMHO, even if it was 50/50 split,
if it came down to two camps, eg<br>
> 'the ones keeping us safe' and 'it
affects/risks our pocketbooks', I<br>
> would err on policies that would aid
the former..<br>
><br>
> Don't want 'politics' to affect such
important decisions..<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 17-06-06 11:22 AM, Andrew Sullivan
wrote:<br>
>> Hi,<br>
>><br>
>> On the call today there were
arguments being made about why certain<br>
>> fields should not be publicly
accessible. In effect, what we are now<br>
>> arguing about, in talking about
what should be considered "thin data",<br>
>> is the definition of the set of
data to which unauthenticated access<br>
>> should be permitted. (Let us
please not get distracted by what is<br>
>> actually required by the RAA or
anything like that just now, since the<br>
>> outcome of this policy discussion
might change that.)<br>
>><br>
>> There were several arguments put
forth about whether the created on,<br>
>> updated on, and expiry dates should
be included. Similarly, people<br>
>> discussed whether the domain status
values should be included. I<br>
>> believe they must be.<br>
>><br>
>> The Internet is unlike many other
technologies because of its radical<br>
>> decentralization. That is not some
sort of political choice, but<br>
>> instead a fundamental part of the
design of the Internet: it's a<br>
>> network of networks (of networks…)
formed by voluntary interoperation<br>
>> among the participants.
Participants in the Internet interoperate<br>
>> without setting up formal
contractual arrangements between all the<br>
>> participating parties. This
feature is part of what has made the<br>
>> Internet so successful compared to
other telecommunications systems,<br>
>> because the barrier to entry is
really low. But that design comes at<br>
>> a cost.<br>
>><br>
>> The cost is that there's not always
a party to speak to, with whom one<br>
>> has a pre-existing relationship.
If communications break down between<br>
>> two telephone customers, they know
whom to call: the phone company.<br>
>> The phone company also has
contractual (or sometimes treaty)<br>
>> relationships to other phone
companies.<br>
>><br>
>> The Internet doesn't work that
way. If you and I are communicating<br>
>> over the Internet, there is no
guarantee of direct contractual<br>
>> relationships all the way along the
transit path: that's what open<br>
>> peering policies ensure. The way
we make this work in fact is by<br>
>> placing the responsibility for
troubleshooting out at the edges. And<br>
>> because of that, when I need to
troubleshoot my site I need to have<br>
>> tools with which to do that.<br>
>><br>
>> In domain-based communications
(such as email, IP telephony, websites,<br>
>> money transfer, and thousands of
other applications), when I encounter<br>
>> a problem with the communication I
need to answer whether the problem<br>
>> is in _my_ network operation, or in
the other end. Important data to<br>
>> rule out "the other end" is in the
thin RDS data.<br>
>><br>
>> Obviously, the nameserver and
DNSSEC information in the RDS will allow<br>
>> me to tell whether what is in the
global DNS is what ought to be<br>
>> there. For instance, if the RDS
has one value for the name servers,<br>
>> but the DNS returns something else,
there is a problem.<br>
>><br>
>> Less obvious but just as important
are the status values. If a name<br>
>> is on Hold or is pendingTransfer or
something like that, it can tell<br>
>> me that something is up. A name
that doesn't appear in the DNS but<br>
>> has a full complement of name
servers in the RDS, for example, might<br>
>> be on hold; and I can't tell that
without seeing the status values.<br>
>><br>
>> In the same way, the dates in the
RDS allow a troubleshooter to<br>
>> understand what might be wrong when
things are broken. If a name is<br>
>> set to expire in a day and you're
getting a parking page on the<br>
>> website, you have a clue about what
is going on. Most of the examples<br>
>> cited in<br>
>> <a
href="https://whoapi.com/blog/1582/5-all-time-domain-expirations-in-internets-history/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://whoapi.com/blog/1582/5-all-time-domain-expirations-in-internets-history/</a><br>
>><br>
>> were trivial to understand for help
desks that could see that a name<br>
>> that should have existed for some
time was just hours old, because the<br>
>> created_on date was available. And
if you start having trouble and<br>
>> see a domain was updated about the
same time the trouble started, you<br>
>> have a pretty good clue that the
problem is most likely at the target<br>
>> domain, and not in your own
network.<br>
>><br>
>> As for the question of why the
global Internet infrastructure needs to<br>
>> help with this, the answer is that
_that's what the infrastructure is<br>
>> for_. We have registrars and
registries in order to co-ordinate these<br>
>> assignments and make those
assignments available, in support of the<br>
>> distributed administration and
operation of the Internet. If the<br>
>> infrastructure isn't providing this
kind of information in order to<br>
>> help administrators of various
Internet administrators, then it isn't<br>
>> doing its job.<br>
>><br>
>> The Internet is a distributed
system. If you want to make distributed<br>
>> systems work, you have to allow the
operators to have enough<br>
>> information to do their jobs
independently of one another. So,<br>
>> regardless of where one lands on
whether any of this data is personal<br>
>> data, it makes no difference. If
you want the domain name system to<br>
>> continue to work reliably, you have
to publish this data.<br>
>> Centralization and locking the data
up for just registrars simply<br>
>> won't scale.<br>
>><br>
>> Best regards,<br>
>><br>
>> A<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
--<br>
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne
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<div>-- <br>
</div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">jonathan
matkowsky, vp - ip & head of global brand
threat mitigation</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_1381224760868507598moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="m_1381224760868507598moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
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Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">-- <br>
</div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">jonathan matkowsky, vp
- ip & head of global brand threat mitigation</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" moz-do-not-send="true">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></div>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
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