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    <p>I see, interesting!<br>

    </p>

    <br>

    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.06.2017 um 16:52 schrieb allison

      nixon:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote type="cite"

cite="mid:CACLR7wJ1GqzJyx4AtGFXjnNV8eHNZw_Wm+6s2XWwEODzqzb25g@mail.gmail.com">

      <div dir="ltr">&gt;&gt;<span style="font-size:12.8px">A lot of the

          spam we see as registrars is tied to the creation date or

          renewal date of a domain name:</span><br

          style="font-size:12.8px">

        <span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;"Your domain is expiring,

          transfer now!"</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">

        <span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;"You registered this

          domain but it has not been listed with search engines yet!"</span><br

          style="font-size:12.8px">

        <span style="font-size:12.8px">etc.</span>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The issue is not because the

            spammer knows the expiration date. the issue is because the

            spammer knows the email and the emails were not properly

            filtered. multiple failures occurred along that path, but

            disclosing the expiration date of the domain was not one. </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span

            style="font-size:12.8px">Any data being published is obvious

            nonsense. Data published by the data subjects themselves is

            also not problematic as long as they are aware of what they

            are doing. If I post my private information on my facebook

            profile, that is my choice and I clearly know what I am

            doing. If I give my hosting provider my address details

            without reading the registration agreement that I agree to,

            that is a totally different story.</span><span

            style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The blame for this lies

            solely on the registrars. don't their websites make it clear

            that WHOIS data is public? I'm pretty sure that when they

            try to sell WHOIS privacy, they make this very very clear.

            At this point this is an effort to protect people who fail

            to read very clear instructions that are unlikely to be

            buried in a EULA. </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span

            style="font-size:12.8px">I thought that term means

            constantly interrupting the other party to "correct" them

            without giving them opportunity to finish? I wasn't aware

            that this can be done by email.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Interruptions don't work

            over email. My point is we see registrars attempting to

            lecture anti-spam people about spam using facts that are

            dead wrong. </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">&gt;&gt;</span><span

            style="font-size:12.8px">Just because there are alternative

            options that does not imply that the status quo is as it

            should or needs to be. Privacy officials have repeatedly

            told ICANN that the current WHOIS has significant issues and

            it is now time to address those issues.</span><span

            style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">There absolutely are,

            especially if the registrars are not making it clear to

            their customers that WHOIS data is public. This is not a

            valid reason to shut down WHOIS.</span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>

          </span></div>

      </div>

      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Volker

          Greimann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a

              href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"

              moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>&gt;</span>

          wrote:<br>

          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0

            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi Allison,<span

                class=""><br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto"><br>

                    </div>

                    <div dir="auto">-registrars complain about spam, but

                      they so far haven't named a single criminal gang

                      that spams. But they harp over and over about

                      domaintools, who do not contribute to spam.</div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> If we thought it would contribute to the

              discussion, we would name the spammers we have seen,

              although I personally do not know who is behind those

              mails we see. We are not investigators of such issues

              after all. <br>

              <span class=""> <br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">-there are also the ridiculous

                      arguments that the creation dates etc in whois can

                      possibly be abused, no evidence is provided.</div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> A lot of the spam we see as registrars is tied to

              the creation date or renewal date of a domain name:<br>

              "Your domain is expiring, transfer now!"<br>

              "You registered this domain but it has not been listed

              with search engines yet!"<br>

              etc.<span class=""><br>

                <br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">-there are also the "legal"

                      arguments where people are saying making any data

                      public is illegal now, but if this is true, can we

                      look forward to a total social media shutdown too?

                      No one can reconcile that simple logical

                      inconsistency.</div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> Any data being published is obvious nonsense. Data

              published by the data subjects themselves is also not

              problematic as long as they are aware of what they are

              doing. If I post my private information on my facebook

              profile, that is my choice and I clearly know what I am

              doing. If I give my hosting provider my address details

              without reading the registration agreement that I agree

              to, that is a totally different story. <br>

              <span class=""> <br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">-apparently those meetings with the

                      much-adored privacy commisioner did not include

                      any voices from those who worked in security. <br>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> If the needs of those that work in security means

              legal requirements have to be violated then there is a

              problem. If they can work within the legal requirements

              then there isn't. <br>

              <span class=""> <br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">-we also have registrars attempting

                      to "mansplain" spam and abuse to people who work

                      IN antispam and antiabuse</div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> I thought that term means constantly interrupting

              the other party to "correct" them without giving them

              opportunity to finish? I wasn't aware that this can be

              done by email.<span class=""><br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">-we have people complain about lack

                      of privacy in whois when it's already been proven

                      that private people have many options to choose

                      from<br>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> Just because there are alternative options that

              does not imply that the status quo is as it should or

              needs to be. Privacy officials have repeatedly told ICANN

              that the current WHOIS has significant issues and it is

              now time to address those issues. <br>

              <span class="">

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">

                      <div dir="auto"><br>

                      </div>

                      <div dir="auto">So these logical inconsistencies

                        raise serious questions. Personally, i am not so

                        quick to accuse people of criminal motivations.

                        After all, i did check the numbers to see if any

                        of the registrars participating here have a

                        disproportionate number of abusive customers.

                        Thanks to the existence of public whois, i did

                        not observe anything indicating that.</div>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> I do not see any inconsistencies. Maybe it depends

              on the point of view and personal experience.<span

                class=""><br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">

                      <div dir="auto"><br>

                      </div>

                      <div dir="auto">Still, the logical inconsistencies

                        raise many questions. Personally, my theory is

                        that the registrars dont want to spend money on

                        running whois servers. And they are bitter that

                        aggregators make money from it when they don't.

                        That type of argument is logically consistent

                        and is something i can actually work with. <br>

                      </div>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> Whois servers cost next to nothing to maintain. It

              is the complaints of current or former customers why their

              current/old information is (still) out there even though

              they sold or deleted their domain or changed their data

              that cost time (=money). Having to explain to customers

              that the agreement that they didn't read included a

              reference to our obligation to publish their whois details

              and pass them on to the registry and escrow service costs

              time. And yes, even if that clause is seperated out and

              seperately agreement is required, most customers simply

              will not read it.<span class=""><br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto"><br>

                      <div dir="auto">I know youall are here to

                        represent your company's interests, and this is

                        a serious fact worth considering. I know that

                        some similar monetization schemes already, and

                        if you dont see the opportunity then your

                        registrar is probably missing out. The

                        registrars that do this not only make extra

                        money, but the data is used to do anti-abuse

                        work for them for free so they can keep their

                        customer base clean without hiring anyone

                        extra. </div>

                    </div>

                  </div>

                </blockquote>

              </span> Well, my employment and my company's interests are

              not all that there is to me. I also firmly believe in

              consumer privacy and the right of each individual to the

              privacy of their own data. <br>

              <br>

              Best,<br>

              Volker<span class=""><br>

                <br>

                <blockquote type="cite">

                  <div dir="auto">

                    <div dir="auto">

                      <div dir="auto"><br>

                      </div>

                      <div dir="auto"><br>

                      </div>

                    </div>

                    <br>

                    <div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br>

                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 8, 2017 4:56 AM,

                        "Stephanie Perrin" &lt;<a

                          href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"

                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>&gt;

                        wrote:<br type="attribution">

                        <blockquote class="m_1573727806736430813quote"

                          style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                          solid;padding-left:1ex">

                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">

                            <p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida

                                  Grande">Calling me naive, ill informed

                                  etc.  does not actually answer the

                                  question folks.  It is, I am afraid, a

                                  valid question.  What criteria does an

                                  organization like APWG apply, when it

                                  admits members and shares data with

                                  them?  How do you ensure you are not

                                  sharing data with organizations who

                                  are going to misuse it?  that data of

                                  course is much more that what we are

                                  talking about with thin data, but I

                                  did actually work on this issue on

                                  successive versions of the anti-spam

                                  legislation.  Oddly enough, government

                                  lawyers examining the issue (mostly

                                  from the competition bureau who deal

                                  with criminal matters) never labelled

                                  me "naive".</font></font></p>

                            <p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida

                                  Grande">Folks, can we please try to be

                                  polite to one another on this list? 

                                  When I have questions like this, I

                                  often check with experts before I

                                  ask.  They don't call me naive, they

                                  answer my questions.</font></font></p>

                            <p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida

                                  Grande">Thanks again.</font></font></p>

                            <font color="#888888">

                              <p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida

                                    Grande">Stephanie</font></font><br>

                              </p>

                            </font>

                            <div

                              class="m_1573727806736430813elided-text">

                              <br>

                              <div

                                class="m_1573727806736430813m_6811967983391159068moz-cite-prefix">On

                                2017-06-08 01:54, Neil Schwartzman

                                wrote:<br>

                              </div>

                            </div>

                            <blockquote type="cite">

                              <div

                                class="m_1573727806736430813elided-text">

                                My experience differs slightly. They

                                aren’t ignored. The presence of these

                                .TLDs is a strong indicator of abuse

                                which bears further investigation.

                                <div><br>

                                </div>

                                <div>

                                  <div>To the point at hand: I believe

                                    the notion of certifying private

                                    cybercrime investigators to be

                                    painfully naive (do I ignore reports

                                    from someone without a Internet

                                    Investigator License? Do we disallow

                                    them access to data?), impractical

                                    in the developed world, and deeply

                                    chauvinistic, patronizing and

                                    exclusionary to our colleagues in

                                    emerging nations where capacity

                                    building is exactly what’s needed to

                                    deal with next-gen abuse.</div>

                                  <div><br>

                                  </div>

                                  <div><br>

                                  </div>

                                  <div>

                                    <div>

                                      <blockquote type="cite">

                                        <div>On Jun 8, 2017, at 2:36 AM,

                                          allison nixon &lt;<a

                                            href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com"

                                            target="_blank"

                                            moz-do-not-send="true">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>&gt;

                                          wrote:</div>

                                        <br

class="m_1573727806736430813m_6811967983391159068Apple-interchange-newline">

                                        <div><span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">We're

                                            getting there. Entire top

                                            level domains are already

                                            ignored on many networks

                                            like .science, .xyz, .pw,

                                            .top, .club, et cetera</span></div>

                                      </blockquote>

                                    </div>

                                    <br>

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                            <br>

                          </div>

                          <br>

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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>

Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>

Email: <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.RRPproxy.net</a>

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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:

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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin

Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 

Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

<a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

------------------------------<wbr>--------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>

Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>

Email: <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>

Web: <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.RRPproxy.net</a>

<a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_1573727806736430813moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.BrandShelter.com</a>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:

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CEO: Alexander Siffrin

Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 

V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

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        <div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>

          Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>

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