<div dir="ltr"><div>There is nothing that precludes them from providing whois services. <br><br></div>Michael Hammer<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Do the alternative roots have public whois?<br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<div class="m_-195142010682787466moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.06.2017 um 16:08 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">I agree with Dotzero's post. Other roots are
highly relevent as a source of cautionary tales and success
stories.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>>><span style="font-size:12.8px">Yes, there are
alternate roots and alternate means of communication on
the internet outside the realm of ICANN, but they have
little to no relevance to what we are discussing. Our
mandate is the ICANN-controlled realm. For all effects and
purposes of our discussion, we can pretend only this world
exists as ICANN has no relevance to the outside. Let's
stick to that.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">There is a reason why
.onion has a reputation for illegal images and drug
markets, and .COM does not. There is a reason why
legitimate businesses selling regular products have not
flourished on I2P. We must be aware of the fate of other
roots and understand that going down the same road could
result in the same fate. Those roots are perfectly fine
for their purposes, and they were not designed with
commerce as a primary goal. Likewise, the public internet
was not designed with the goal of anonymity, and this
attempt to shoehorn anonymity decades after the fact is a
recipe for failure- the other roots use cryptography at
their core to ensure real anonymity, because their
founders actually understand that policies are made to be
broken.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-size:12.8px">The other day I
received an industry newsletter entitled ".science is pure
evil". Imagine selling a product so bad that people pay
money to read material denouncing it. </span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Dotzero
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dotzero@gmail.com" target="_blank">dotzero@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Volcker,<br>
<br>
</div>
Context is everything. Stephanie made the following
assertion "Actually, ICANN has a monopoly over who
is an accredited registrar for the gTLDs. " which is
in fact not correct.<br>
<br>
</div>
The reason that people are participating in this
painful process is because they care. To assert that
we should pretend that reality isn't reality does a
disservice to both the participants in this process
and ICANN as an institution. The goal is (or should
be) to come up with an outcome which results in a
stronger RDS replacement for whois or to recognize
that despite it's limitations, whois is about as good
as it gets for the forseeable future. To the extent
that this group and ICANN succeeds or fails impacts
whether people choose to continue to participate in
the ICANN "game" (as in game theory) or choose to play
another game.<br>
<br>
</div>
Let's stick to reality rather than pretend. It usually
results in better outcomes.<br>
<br>
</div>
Michael Hammer<br>
</div>
<div class="m_-195142010682787466m_8492268258283228188HOEnZb">
<div class="m_-195142010682787466m_8492268258283228188h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 8:14
AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Yes, there are alternate roots and alternate
means of communication on the internet outside
the realm of ICANN, but they have little to no
relevance to what we are discussing. Our
mandate is the ICANN-controlled realm. For all
effects and purposes of our discussion, we can
pretend only this world exists as ICANN has no
relevance to the outside. Let's stick to that.</p>
<span class="m_-195142010682787466m_8492268258283228188m_-251019661665415514HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-195142010682787466m_8492268258283228188m_-251019661665415514h5">
<br>
<div class="m_-195142010682787466m_8492268258283228188m_-251019661665415514m_3695712634473626675moz-cite-prefix">Am
08.06.2017 um 14:04 schrieb Dotzero:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Stephanie,<br>
<br>
</div>
Your response clearly shows that you
don't understand how the Internet
functions at a technical level. To
put it in simple terms, ICANN only
has a monopoly over who is a
registry or registrar for gTLDs that
people choose to point to. Anyone
can set up alternate roots and if
people believe that is a better
mouse trap and choose to point to
those roots then that is what will
work from both a technical and
practical perspective. <br>
<br>
When people talk about the "dark
web", that is an alternative system
that does not rely on ICANN, the
root servers and gTLDs which ICANN
controls or the ccTLDs which ICANN
does not control. <br>
<br>
</div>
When you speak of "controlling things"
you misunderstand the nature of the
Internet. Perhaps you were not around
for this - <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_the_United_States#/media/File:Munitions_T-shirt_%28front%29.jpg" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Export_of_cryptography_from_th<wbr>e_United_States#/media/File:Mu<wbr>nitions_T-shirt_(front).jpg</a><br>
<br>
</div>
Michael Hammer<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8,
2017 at 5:32 AM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">"ICANN has
no power independent of the
agreement of everyone<br>
to use the ICANN policies for the
IANA DNS root. Ask MySpace or the<br>
authors of Gopher whether there are
any permanent favourites on the<br>
Internet."<br>
<br>
Actually, ICANN has a monopoly over
who is an accredited registrar for
the gTLDs. With respect to the
contracts between registries and
registrars, I would argue that the
community has historically had very
little opportunity to influence
those contracts, with the exception
of the IPC who got their
requirements in to the DOC prior to
the establishment of ICANN. At the
moment we are expending a great deal
of our valuable time designing the
public interface that contains the
data we deem acceptable to share.
Inherent in the concept of tiered
access, which some ccTLDS already
employ, and which the DPAs have
already said (in documents in our
repository which clearly some of us
need to reread) is the concept of
discrimination....you need to
identify who you are and why you
want the data to get more access,
possibly untraced access (to enable
investigations etc) and bulk data.
I do understand that there is no
"centre" there, but I certainly
think that ICANN has influence over
who gets access to the next tier of
data. Let me repeat for greater
clarity: I am not talking about thin
data.<br>
<br>
I have taken the time to plough
through the Interpol data protection
handbook. Some may recall that
Caroline Goemans, the Data
Protection Officer for Interpol came
to Copenhagen. I hesitate to even
mention their handbook because folks
will choose to believe that I want
the Interpol rules for data sharing
to apply to those tireless fighters
who report abuse, across the
globe...so let me immediately say
relax, I am not suggesting this.
However, a mini version of how
trusted parties share data needs, in
my view, to be developed. I was just
accused of suggesting something that
is "impractical in the developed
world, and deeply chauvinistic,
patronizing and exclusionary to our
colleagues in emerging nations where
capacity building is exactly what’s
needed to deal with next-gen
abuse." Frankly, it should be
admissible to suggest that we need a
system that is slightly more
organized and less open to
anti-competitive behaviour than the
club-of-folks-who-know-each-ot<wbr>her
under which we are operating now.
It is precisely because we are
global and a lot of the criminal
behaviour emanates from countries
where nobody has any mlats or has
signed and implemented the Budapest
Convention that I would suggest we
should think about some kind of
accreditation for access to data.
Otherwise, registrars who surrender
personal data of their registrants
are likely in violation of more law
than mere data protection law. [for
non-english speakers, the use of the
word "mere" was intended to be
ironic"].<br>
<br>
Cheers Stephanie<br>
<br>
<br>
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