<div dir="ltr">Stephanie, the context certainly helps, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain that. What Chuck said is true that nobody should feel stifled from mentioning a company in the industry if it is necessary to advance a policy argument. I agree that is a matter of good judgment and not everyone will see eye to eye-- that does not mean they are not acting in good faith. <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">Perhaps I was being too emotional about it.</div><br><br>Best,<br>Jonathan<div class="gmail_extra">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I certainly apologize
if I offended anyone from APWG here, but I consulted Peter
Cassidy prior to posting my message, and he is as mystified as
I am about what could have offended people here. And If I am
misrepresenting Peter, I am sure I will hear from him shortly
since he is an observer on this group and since we have been
pals for a very long time, (read over 20 years so who's
counting), he will surely let me know right away!</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I happen to think the
APWG is a great organization, that is why I volunteer to help
out with the Stop-think-connect program, something I think
deserves all the support it can get.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Cheers Stephanie</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-9219738088637671984moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-06-08 11:16, Gomes, Chuck
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-9219738088637671984WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Jonathan
makes some useful suggestions here. We certainly should not
single out companies or organizations in a derogatory
manner, but that should not prevent us from asking questions
about specific companies or organizations if those questions
are not critical of them and are designed to help our
understanding.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-9219738088637671984__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a class="m_-9219738088637671984moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[<a class="m_-9219738088637671984moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>jonathan matkowsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 08, 2017 5:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephanie Perrin
<a class="m_-9219738088637671984moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"><stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG <a class="m_-9219738088637671984moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in
charge? (was Re: Why the thin data is necessary)]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">I am
not sure if calling a position you are advocating for
naive is the same as calling you naive, but it isn't
helpful for sure. We need to all listen to each other
when considering policy, and acknowledge the importance
of all stakeholders and seek to understand their points
of view. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">We
also need to try and build consensus</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">. We
all have an obligation to ensure that </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">policy
development and decision-making processes will reflect <b>the
public interest</b>, irrespective of personal
interests and the interests of the entity to which we as
individuals might owe our appointment.</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
We all owe each other to behave in a professional manner and
demonstrate <b>appropriate behavior</b>.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> This
includes acting in
<b>good faith</b> with other participants. I want to
say that <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">while
I am certain it was not intended, that<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> people <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">will<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> react emotionally when you single out
APWG without<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
necessarily<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">having any <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">real
need to<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> do so<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> for
purposes of discussion<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> I
know it upset me.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">I
think h<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ow data is "shared" within APWG,
an international coalition unifying the global response to
cybercrime across industry, government and law-enforcement
sectors and NGO communities
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">is <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">different issue than sharing Whois data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> I
would encourage everyone to consider whether singling
out a company like has been done with DomainTools or
APWG, is <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">appropriate
or like I believe, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">foreseeably
derails the consensus building efforts in violation of
ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">On
a side note, a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> threat
researcher or analyst is not the equivalent of an
investigator. So focusing on certifying investigators
is irrelevant to any issue within the working group. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jonathan Matkowsky<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:55 AM,
Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p><span>Calling me naive, ill
informed etc. does not actually answer the
question folks. It is, I am afraid, a valid
question. What criteria does an organization
like APWG apply, when it admits members and
shares data with them? How do you ensure you
are not sharing data with organizations who are
going to misuse it? that data of course is much
more that what we are talking about with thin
data, but I did actually work on this issue on
successive versions of the anti-spam
legislation. Oddly enough, government lawyers
examining the issue (mostly from the competition
bureau who deal with criminal matters) never
labelled me "naive".</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span>Folks, can we please try to
be polite to one another on this list? When I
have questions like this, I often check with
experts before I ask. They don't call me naive,
they answer my questions.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span>Thanks again.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span>Stephanie</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-06-08 01:54, Neil
Schwartzman wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">My experience differs
slightly. They aren’t ignored. The presence of
these .TLDs is a strong indicator of abuse which
bears further investigation.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To the point at hand: I
believe the notion of certifying private
cybercrime investigators to be painfully
naive (do I ignore reports from someone
without a Internet Investigator License? Do
we disallow them access to data?),
impractical in the developed world, and
deeply chauvinistic, patronizing and
exclusionary to our colleagues in emerging
nations where capacity building is exactly
what’s needed to deal with next-gen abuse.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 8, 2017, at
2:36 AM, allison nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">We're
getting there. Entire top level
domains are already ignored on many
networks like .science, .xyz, .pw,
.top, .club, et cetera</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>