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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Jonathan makes some useful suggestions here. We certainly should not single out companies or organizations in a derogatory manner, but that should not prevent us from asking
questions about specific companies or organizations if those questions are not critical of them and are designed to help our understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>jonathan matkowsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 08, 2017 5:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why the thin data is necessary)]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">I am not sure if calling a position you are advocating for naive is the same as calling you naive, but it isn't helpful for sure. We need to all listen to each other when considering policy,
and acknowledge the importance of all stakeholders and seek to understand their points of view. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">We also need to try and build consensus</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">. We all have an obligation to ensure that </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">policy
development and decision-making processes will reflect <b>the public interest</b>, irrespective of personal interests and the interests of the entity to which we as individuals might owe our appointment.</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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We all owe each other to behave in a professional manner and demonstrate <b>appropriate behavior</b>.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> This includes acting in
<b>good faith</b> with other participants. I want to say that <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">while I am certain it was not intended, that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> people <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">will<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> react emotionally when you single out APWG without<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> necessarily<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">having any <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">real need to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> do so<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> for purposes of discussion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> I know it upset me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">I think h<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ow data is "shared" within APWG, an international coalition unifying the global response to cybercrime across industry, government and law-enforcement sectors and NGO communities
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">is <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">different issue than sharing Whois data.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> I would encourage everyone to consider whether singling out a company like has been done with DomainTools or APWG, is <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">appropriate or like I believe, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">foreseeably derails the consensus building efforts in violation of ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">On a side note, a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> threat researcher or analyst is not the equivalent of an investigator. So focusing on certifying investigators is irrelevant to any issue within the working group. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jonathan Matkowsky<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Calling me naive, ill informed etc. does not actually answer the question folks. It is, I am afraid, a valid question. What criteria does an organization like APWG apply, when it admits
members and shares data with them? How do you ensure you are not sharing data with organizations who are going to misuse it? that data of course is much more that what we are talking about with thin data, but I did actually work on this issue on successive
versions of the anti-spam legislation. Oddly enough, government lawyers examining the issue (mostly from the competition bureau who deal with criminal matters) never labelled me "naive".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Folks, can we please try to be polite to one another on this list? When I have questions like this, I often check with experts before I ask. They don't call me naive, they answer my questions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Thanks again.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande",serif">Stephanie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2017-06-08 01:54, Neil Schwartzman wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My experience differs slightly. They aren’t ignored. The presence of these .TLDs is a strong indicator of abuse which bears further investigation.
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<p class="MsoNormal">To the point at hand: I believe the notion of certifying private cybercrime investigators to be painfully naive (do I ignore reports from someone without a Internet Investigator License? Do we disallow them access to data?), impractical
in the developed world, and deeply chauvinistic, patronizing and exclusionary to our colleagues in emerging nations where capacity building is exactly what’s needed to deal with next-gen abuse.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 8, 2017, at 2:36 AM, allison nixon <<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">We're getting there. Entire top level domains are already ignored on many networks like .science, .xyz, .pw, .top, .club, et cetera</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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