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<p>I don't think we need to retake the polls. We just need to
clarify that when we said optional, we meant it in the real sense
of the word, not the ICANN-style interpretation-bending sense.</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.09.2017 um 08:42 schrieb Farell
Folly:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADzHdxdM-S4onvcaUQZVbhr+V1pGQu7qcX-YuRwW4iP2VoEX9Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">@Greg it is great to point out these three options
as it really depicts out what is now confusing many. If possible
we can do the poll again taking this into account or discuss it
in the next PDP WG call.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><br>
<br>
Regards<br>
@__f_f__<br>
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/farellf"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.linkedin.com/in/farellf</a><br>
________________________________<br>
Mail sent from my mobile phone. Excuse for brievety.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">Le 5 sept. 2017 05:21, "Greg Shatan"
<<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">A few modest
observations:</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">1. I expect that
most (if not all) who answered "optional" in past polls
had the more "layperson" definition in mind ("answer if
you want to"). Thus, it would not be fair to count their
answers as "ICANN optional."</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">2. "ICANN
optional" is a valid state (or category), different from
"mandatory" or "layperson optional." </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Mandatory: You
must have a valid answer (e.g., if an email address is
mandatory, you must have an email address and you must
supply it, If you don't have an email address, you'll
need to get one to proceed)</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">ICANN optional:
If you have a valid answer, you must supply it (e.g.,
if "Reseller" is ICANN-optional, you must supply the
Reseller name if you know a Reseller was involved).</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Layman
optional: If you have a valid answer, you can choose
whether or not to supply it. (e.g., if Skype address
is Layman-optional, and you have a Skype address, you
don't have to supply it (e.g., because you don't want
to use it for domain-related communication)).</div>
</blockquote>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">3.
Future polls should take all 3 states into account.</div>
</font>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">4.
We need another term for "ICANN-optional" (since
"optional" is far from clear, despite the amount of
precedent in ICANN-land)</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">5.
We should clarify absolutely that "optional" means
"Layman-optional" (just to get that out of the way).</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">Any
ideas for what to call "ICANN-optional"? ("Smoke
'em if you got 'em" has a certain ring to it, but
wouldn't be taken seriously.) Maybe "Required if
present"?</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">Greg</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>
<br>
</font>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="elided-text">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 8:08 PM,
Metalitz, Steven <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:met@msk.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">met@msk.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div
class="m_3263765945143147644m_-4564825141599727962WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
know there has been a lot of subsequent
traffic on this topic on the list over the
(US) holiday weekend, but I just wanted to
thank Jonathan for catching this. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This
is not the first time that ICANN has
created confusion by using the label
“optional “ to mean “required”. In its
public comments on the first proposed RDAP
operational profile, the IPC noted: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">Why
define RDDS fields as OPTIONAL,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">and
then state that they are REQUIRED to be
included in a response? In addition, several
of the</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">fields
listed as OPTIONAL are in fact required to
be displayed under current RDDS contractual</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">provisions
(compare, e.g., section 1.5.11, labeling as
OPTIONAL such fields as postal code and</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">organization
of the registrant or the technical or
administrative contacts, with sections 1.4
and</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">1.5,
Specification 4 of the Base Registry
Agreement for new gTLD registries,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:blue"><a
href="http://newgtlds.icann.org/sites/default/files/agreements/agreement-approved-09jan14-en.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://newgtlds.icann.org/site<wbr>s/default/files/agreements/<wbr>agreement-approved-09jan14-en.<wbr>pdf</a></span><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">including
all these fields in the “minimum output
requirements” for display). Since these
fields</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif";color:black">are
required to be displayed, it is extremely
confusing to label them as OPTIONAL in the
RDAP
</span><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif"">profile.
The fact that in a particular record some of
these fields may not contain any data (i.e.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif"">they
are blank) does not mean that they are
Optional.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"TimesNewRomanPSMT","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-rdap-profile-03dec15/pdfMA8kNzPr2j.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://forum.icann.org/lists/<wbr>comments-rdap-profile-03dec15/<wbr>pdfMA8kNzPr2j.pdf</a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">ICANN’s
response to this point in its staff report
on the public comments received was as
follows:
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
class="m_3263765945143147644m_-4564825141599727962Default"><span
style="font-size:11.5pt">The definition of
"Optional" is:
<i>RDDS fields defined as Optional in this
document <b>are REQUIRED to be included
in a response</b>, using the appropriate
mapping as defined in Appendix B,
<b>when germane to the query and data
exists in the Registry or Registrar
database</b>, as the case may be.
</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.5pt">The definition of
fields as "Optional" is based on the same
definition as in the "Advisory:
Clarifications to the Registry Agreement,
and the 2013 Registrar Accreditation
Agreement (RAA) regarding applicable
Registration Data Directory Service (Whois)
Specifications", <a
href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/registry-agreement-raa-rdds-2015-04-27-en"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.icann.org/resource<wbr>s/pages/registry-agreement-<wbr>raa-rdds-2015-04-27-en</a>,
which is based on the optionality of fields
in the technical standards.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/report-comments-rdap-profile-25apr16-en.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.icann.org/en/syste<wbr>m/files/files/report-comments-<wbr>rdap-profile-25apr16-en.pdf</a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">So
apparently there is a somewhat extensive
pedigree for this Orwellian formulation (</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""
lang="EN"> “<strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:normal">War</span></strong><b>
is
</b><strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:normal">peace</span></strong>
/ freedom is slavery/optional is required
.”)
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Nevertheless,
I hesitate to follow Jonathan’s suggestion
that we continue to follow ICANN staff
through the looking glass by agreeing that
“optional” means “required”. Even though
that suggestion would lead to a substantive
outcome that I consider preferable (as
indicated by my repeated postings and poll
contributions urging that, e.g., registrant
phone number and physical address be
required fields for collection, not
optional), compounding the confusion caused
by this misleading terminology may be too
steep a price to pay. I agree with
Andrew Sullivan who noted “</span>That is a
pretty unnatural definition of "optional", and
certainly not one that I expect will be
understood by any implementer.”<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e">On
behalf of Coalition for Online
Accountability (COA) | <a
href="http://www.onlineaccountability.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.onlineaccountability.net</a></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e"><img
id="m_3263765945143147644m_-4564825141599727962Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part9.0389CA6A.E32C87EB@key-systems.net"
alt="image001" class="" height="41"
width="124" border="0"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e">Steven
J. Metalitz
</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">|<b>
</b></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e">Partner,
through his professional corporation</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">T:
<a href="tel:%28202%29%20355-7902"
value="+12023557902" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+1.202.355.7902</a>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">|</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><a
href="mailto:met@msk.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:black">met@msk.com</span></a></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e">Mitchell
Silberberg & Knupp</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#88162e">LLP</span></b><span
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</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">|</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#84162e">
<b><a href="http://www.msk.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#84162e">www.msk.com</span></a></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>jonathan matkowsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 01, 2017 7:51
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Aaron<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
IMPORTANT: Invitation for Poll from 29
August Meeting</span></p>
<div>
<div class="m_3263765945143147644h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">It
may be important to note from the
April 27
<a
href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/registry-agreement-raa-rdds-2015-04-27-en"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">advisory</a>
on that Consensus Policy that if data
exists for a given optional field,
the data MUST be shown. So I would
suggest we define optional in that
way.</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 30,
2017 at 6:22 AM, Greg Aaron <<a
href="mailto:gca@icginc.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gca@icginc.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
name="m_3263765945143147644_m_-4564825141599727962_m_-1523007350646951416__MailEndCompose"
moz-do-not-send="true">The
first question of this poll
asks whether Reseller Name
must be supported by the RDS,
and whether it MUST or MAY be
provided for inclusion in the
RDS by Registrars.</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This issue
was decided by the Registry
Registration Data Directory
Services Consistent Labeling and
Display Policy, a Consensus
Policy that went into effect 1
August 2017. It says:
<span
style="color:#333333;background:white">“In
responses to domain name
object queries the following
fields are considered
optional … Reseller.”
</span><a
href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/rdds-labeling-policy-2017-02-01-en"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="background:white">https://www.icann.org/resource<wbr>s/pages/rdds-labeling-policy-<wbr>2017-02-01-en</span></a>
The policy says that the system
must support this field, it’s
optional for registrars to fill
in that field, and the field is
displayed in output if the
registrar provided the data.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The<span
style="color:#333333;background:white">
WG is accepting the results of
that Consensus Policy
regarding Registrar Abuse
contacts. So I suggest it
also follow what that that
same Consensus Policy says
about for Reseller Name.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#333333;background:white"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#333333;background:white">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#333333;background:white">--Greg</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Greg
Aaron</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Vice-President,
Product Management</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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Cyber Group /
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lisa
Phifer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,
August 30, 2017 12:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] IMPORTANT:
Invitation for Poll from 29
August Meeting<br>
<b>Importance:</b> High</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In follow-up
to this week’s WG meeting,
<b>all RDS PDP WG Members</b>
are encouraged to participate in
the following poll:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DKQTQHP"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="background:white">https://www.surveymonkey.com/r<wbr>/DKQTQHP</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:white"> </span></strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Responses
should be submitted through the
above URL. For offline
reference, a PDF of poll
questions can also be found at:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66086750/Poll-from-29AugustCall.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://community.icann.org/do<wbr>wnload/attachments/66086750/Po<wbr>ll-from-29AugustCall.pdf</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>This poll
will close at COB Saturday 2
September. Poll results will
be discussed in our 5
September WG meeting.</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please note
that you
<u>must be a WG Member</u> to
participate in polls. If you are
a WG Observer wishing to
participate in polls, you must
first contact
<a
href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-secs@icann.org</a>
to upgrade to WG Member.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lisa</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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