<html>
<body>
Thanks for the summary Nick. Although we may have wished that this played
out another way, we are not in TOO bad a shape.<br><br>
The PDP is looking at the NEXT version of WHOIS/RDS. Within the contect
of ICANN, there is no other way to do this but through a GNSO PDP, and
hopefully we can actually complete this and move forward. How timely we
do it will depend on how willing we are to work together to reach
consensus.<br><br>
The RDS-WHOIS2-RT: Some of us wanted to defer this one, but for a number
of reasons and in particular how the new Bylaws were drafted (in
accordance with CCWG wishes), we had no choice but to proceed. I among
others tried to limit its scope, but that did not work either. So it is
proceeding, but we will try VERY hard to make sure that we do not overlap
with the PDP. We are also cognizant of GDPR issues, and will try to
not overlap there as well, but that will partially depend on how quickly
GDPR issues unfold.<br><br>
GDPR: It is clear that the PDP will have to be aware of and plan for
GDPR-like protections (and not limited to Europe), but the current
staff-led activities have a very different target than worrying about the
NEXT RDS/WHOIS. We have laws that will kick in with significant penalties
in a few months - LONG before we will have a new RDS ready to roll out.
We, ICANN and our contracted parties need to decide how to address the
CURRENT WHOIS in light of GDPR. Playing ostrich and putting our
collective heads in the sand is not an option (despite it working until
now for some!). <br><br>
Perhaps the data commissioners will find that what we are doing is
warranted in light of the history and alternatives. Or perhaps we will
have to shut down WHOIS completely. Or perhaps there will be some
middle-ground found. But it is an operational issue with the current
implementation that is being addressed. It is possible the PDP may learn
something from how this plays out. Or not. But they are separate issues.
<br><br>
Alan <br><br>
<br>
At 23/09/2017 01:38 PM, Nick Shorey Lists wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hi everyone,<br><br>
Thanks for all the information and discussion on this topic. Good healthy
debate in a very important topic which is exactly as it should be!<br>
<br>
I recall raising this point during the cross-community sessions in
Helsinki 2016, and I think it is still the case that we have got several
tracks of closely-related work running concurrently which have the
potential to impact one another. Nobody's fault of course, but IMHO it
would probably be more pragmatic to do GDPR / Whois review first, NGRDS
after.<br><br>
Whilst I will stop short of recommending applying the brakes at this
stage, as I think there is definitely progress being made and work that
can be achieved, I welcome and encourage the continuation of efforts to
ensure open channels of communication with all groups and parties on
activities that may intersect with our endeavours here, including
dialogue between ICANN and data protection authorities on current policy
issues around GDPR, that we can ensure our work here is able to take
account of developments under the current system and fast-moving policy
landscape.<br><br>
Best,<br><br>
Nick<br><br>
Nick Shorey<br>
Phone: +44 (0) 7552 455 988<br>
Email:
<a href="mailto:lists@nickshorey.com">lists@nickshorey.com</a><br>
Skype: nick.shorey<br>
Twitter: @nickshorey<br>
LinkedIn:
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www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin</a><br>
Web: <a href="http://www.nickshorey.com">www.nickshorey.com</a><br><br>
On 23 Sep 2017, at 17:51, Kris Seeburn
<<a href="mailto:seeburn.k@gmail.com">seeburn.k@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br>
<br>
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/WHO/RDS-WHOIS2+Review">
https://community.icann.org/display/WHO/RDS-WHOIS2+Review</a><br><br>
Thats what marika is referring to i guess.<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On Sep 23, 2017, at 20:46, Paul
Keating <<a href="mailto:paul@law.es">paul@law.es</a>>
wrote:<br><br>
Does anyone have the details of the meeting Marisa is
referencing?<br><br>
Sincerely,<br>
Paul Keating, Esq.<br><br>
On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Marika Konings
<<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org">marika.konings@icann.org</a>
> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I presume he is referring to the
RDS/WHOIS 2 Review Team meeting that is taking place in Brussels in early
October as I am not aware of any other RDS meeting. <br><br>
Best regards,<br><br>
Marika<br><br>
On 23 Sep 2017, at 09:19, Metalitz, Steven
<<a href="mailto:met@msk.com">met@msk.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Thanks for sharing this
Marika?<br><br>
What RDS F2F in Brussels is James referring to in his message? Is it a
meeting of this WG or something else?<br><br>
Steve<br><br>
<br><br>
Sent with Good (<a href="http://www.good.com/">www.good.com</a>)<br><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From: </b>Marika Konings
[<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org">marika.konings@icann.org</a>
]<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Friday, September 22, 2017 06:22 PM Pacific Standard
Time<br>
<b>To: </b>Stephanie Perrin;
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with
Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners<br><br>
In relation to the Brussels meeting, please see the message that James
Bladel just shared with the GNSO Council. I’ll follow up with my
colleagues to see if there is further information available about the
panel in Hong Kong. I’ll keep you posted.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br><br>
Marika<br>
<br><br>
<b>From:</b>
<<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Stephanie Perrin
<<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">
stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>><br>
<b>Date:</b> Friday, September 22, 2017 at 17:55<br>
<b>To:</b>
"<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with
Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners<br>
<br><br>
I actually think everyone is correct here, and if you all agree with me
then I will go apply for a job at the UN, they seem to need
help.<br><br>
1. First, I am not sure exactly what Fab was quoting me on, but I
think we need to have some idea what ICANN is saying to the DPAs.
As indicated, there is a Board member and ICANN VP travelling to Hong
Kong, to be on a panel with the EDPS and the UN special rapporteur at a
conference of the world data commissioners last week in
September....surely we might get a little look at their speeches to
inform ourselves? I have read Goran's letter to Buttarelli and am
still wondering what that is about.....unless it is to follow up on
meetings which we have not heard about. So all I was asking for was
a wee bit more transparency as to what is going on. Unfortunately
CHuck was cutting out in his response, but I gather he was not wiser than
I as to what is going on. Perhaps Marika could inquire and get back
to us?<br><br>
2. We in the GNSO Council have been told there will be a meeting in
Brussels of a select few, to talk to the DPAs, in early October.
Still no date. I don't find that acceptable, and again I think we
have a right to know what is being said/negotiated. Naturally I
would like to be there as the NCSG rep, given the amount of research I
have done on this issue, but if we don't find out soon it will have to be
somebody else.<br><br>
3. This PDP should continue along its course, but hopefully soon, a
little better informed by the legal analysis which the leadership team
has received. That ought to speed up our process, in my
view.<br><br>
4. While I am of the view that the RAA and the Registry contracts
are full of policy issues that deserve attention, I do agree with Volker
that interpreting the expression "compliance with local law" or
its variants in the RAA ought to be left up to them. And that, as
you all know by now, in my opinion means a much more private WHOIS, fewer
international data transfers, and greater authentication of third party
data recipients. The fact that we have been arguing about these
very issues since 1998 continues to stun and fascinate me.<br><br>
5. If anyone is meeting with the Easter Bunny, please bring
chocolate to Abu. Looks like it is going to be a strenuous
meeting. Lindt will be fine.<br><br>
cheers Stephanie<br>
<br><br>
On 2017-09-22 12:27, Volker Greimann wrote:<br>
<dl><br>
<dd>The community does not have any active role to play when it comes to
the interpretation and enforcement of ICANN contracts and international
law. This is an issue that contracted parties will have to work out with
ICANN. To the contrary, I find it very, very disturbing that certain
interest groups believe they have a role to play here.<br><br>
<dd>Once the fallout becomes cleared and it has been determined which
policies and obligations are problematic, the comunity comes back in and
can start working on replacement policies. GDPR will have a profound
impact on RDS, as current practices simply do not work anymore. While
some tout consent as the solve-all, be reminded that consent must be
free, informed, and can be revoked at any time, without consequence to
the service being provided.<br><br>
<dd>Best regards,<br><br>
<dd>Volker<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Am 22.09.2017 um 18:19 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
<dl><br>
<dd>Hi Fab,<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Thanks for your insights into this. You raise a really
interesting and important point. I tend to agree with you that the
lack of community engagement in the GDPR-preparedness discussions is very
very disturbing. I’m not sure I agree that it should be conflated
with the RDS PDP. I see the GDPR discussions as related to Whois
“as is” if you will. I see the RDS group as dealing with the
future of Whois, that is creating an “ideal” (or as ideal as possible
considering we govern by committee) system. If
anything, I think RDS should suspend its work until we understand more
fully the implications of the GDPR on Whois. but I don’t think the RDS
discussions have a place in the GDPR discussions. <br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>That said, I do think we have a ton of experts in this group, and we
should probably all be participating in whatever capacity we can in both
discussions. <br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>I hope that makes sense and that I’m appropriately understanding
what your concerns are. <br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Best,<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Kiran<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
</b><br>
<dd>Policy<br><br>
<dd>MarkMonitor<br><br>
<dd>415.222.8318 (t)<br><br>
<dd>415.419.9138 (m)<br><br>
<dd>
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www.markmonitor.com[markmonitor.com]</a><br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of</b> Vayra,
Fabricio (Perkins Coie)<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Friday, September 22, 2017 8:16 AM<br>
<dd>To:</b> Andrew Sullivan
<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"><ajs@anvilwalrusden.com></a>
;
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with
Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Appreciate this feedback, Andrew. Simply put, my concern is
that these independent and misinformed conversations will result in bad
decision making that will run counter to our efforts here in this
duly-constituted PDP WG that is following the standard ICANN processes
for developing policy -- if not render them useless altogether.
Which in turn highlights my earlier comment that this side-show effort
from ICANN runs counter to the bottom up / standard ICANN processes for
developing policy.<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Maybe it's just me making a mountain out of a molehill, but Stephanie
echoing these concerns on the last call encouraged me to reach out to my
fellow WG members to see if others share the concern and wanted to act on
it.<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Others?<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>-----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>From:
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of Andrew
Sullivan<br>
<dd>Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 11:09 AM<br>
<dd>To:
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data
Protection and Privacy Commissioners<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Hi,<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 02:51:44PM +0000, Vayra, Fabricio (Perkins
Coie) wrote:<br><br>
<dd>><br><br>
<dd>> I couldn’t agree more with Stephanie and find it incredible
that ICANN, despite our ongoing efforts and the plethora of published
community concerns, are continuing with the approach of rushing to
discussions with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
“half-cocked.” Putting aside the apparent widely shared view
that this approach is misinformed and dangerous, it’s simply redundant
of and does not take advantage of our work within this PDP process
-- one could even say that it runs counter to the bottom up and community
led initiative on RDS/WHOIS.<br><br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>I don't understand what the problem is supposed to be. We are
a<br><br>
<dd>duly-constituted PDP WG that is following the standard ICANN
processes<br><br>
<dd>for developing policy. If other parts of ICANN want to talk to
data<br><br>
<dd>protection and privacy commissioners, or activists in favour
of<br><br>
<dd>publishing all personal data available in the universe, or
privacy<br><br>
<dd>activists who think the DNS should be closed in favour of
onion<br><br>
<dd>routing, or the committee of the Present King of France and the
Easter<br><br>
<dd>Bunny, why should we care? In the event (for which I have
diminshing<br><br>
<dd>hope) that we publish a report that is actionable by the GNSO,
the<br><br>
<dd>ordinary ICANN policy mechanisms will grind forward no matter
what<br><br>
<dd>meetings people have had.<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>We can best contribute to that end, in my opinion, by focussing
on<br><br>
<dd>getting done the work that we are supposed to be doing, rather
than<br><br>
<dd>worrying about all the other things other people might be
doing. By<br><br>
<dd>concentrating on this and making some progress, we might even
reduce<br><br>
<dd>the temptation of others to second guess this process. At the
rate we<br><br>
<dd>are currently moving, we appear to be destined to deliver
something<br><br>
<dd>right after heat death of the universe, and I suggest that that
pace<br><br>
<dd>is partly because there is no issue on which people are willing
to<br><br>
<dd>focus, come to a clear conclusion, and then let that conclusion
stand.<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>I therefore urge that we focus on our task and not make our job
harder<br><br>
<dd>than it already is by attending to outside distractions.<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>Best regards,<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>A<br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd>--<br><br>
<dd>Andrew Sullivan<br><br>
<dd><a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br>
<br>
<dd>_______________________________________________<br><br>
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<dd><pre>--
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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<dd><pre>
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<dd><pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Volker A. Greimann
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>- Rechtsabteilung -
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<dd><pre>--------------------------------------------
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to
contact us.
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Best regards,
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Volker A. Greimann
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>- legal department -
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Key-Systems GmbH
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Im Oberen Werk 1
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>66386 St. Ingbert
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Email:
<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Web:
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.key-2Dsystems.net&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=bbBiqSRujM-9tTsdiIvNgan-B3pJvqhiB3pBAmDIPns&s=rmDy8eAXULI96-MqJ1gzXtiDE3cadC9gDDaQUSahCMU&e=">
www.key-systems.net[key-systems.net]</a> /
<a href="http://www.rrpproxy.net[rrpproxy.net/" eudora="autourl">
www.RRPproxy.net[RRPproxy.net</a>]
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.domaindiscount24.com&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=bbBiqSRujM-9tTsdiIvNgan-B3pJvqhiB3pBAmDIPns&s=I4VVwl5yTeZC3INzuNyISf5xbgNUTYaA1a7Q8uCRjTY&e=">
www.domaindiscount24.com[domaindiscount24.com]</a> /
<a href="http://www.brandshelter.com[brandshelter.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.BrandShelter.com[BrandShelter.com</a>]
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and
stay updated:
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_KeySystems&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=bbBiqSRujM-9tTsdiIvNgan-B3pJvqhiB3pBAmDIPns&s=3HQR5Q0h8twUtbMUyKVeemM8WglQWFBh7UFH2XW42Hc&e=">
www.facebook.com/KeySystems[facebook.com]</a>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems%5Btwitter.com" eudora="autourl">
www.twitter.com/key_systems[twitter.com</a>]
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>CEO: Alexander Siffrin
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.keydrive.lu&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=bbBiqSRujM-9tTsdiIvNgan-B3pJvqhiB3pBAmDIPns&s=7cffhtm39NqtqycrgHzLkG5sCDao_IUt8wHm8NF1YUg&e=">
www.keydrive.lu[keydrive.lu]</a>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person
to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any
content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on
this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this
e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting
us by telephone.
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
</pre><br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
<dd><pre>_______________________________________________
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
</pre><br><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" eudora="autourl">
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</pre>
</dl><br>
</blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
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Kris Seeburn<br>
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<dl>
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