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<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Yes, I believe it is
names and numbers. I am curious as to how you would define
its purpose.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Stephanie Perrin</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-09-27 12:16, John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:ede76b4a-8956-8410-2955-ef66c1007b49@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Well, the "world" is not the governing entity. Neither are
registrars, or for that matter me. There is an organization
chartered for this purpose and only one, ICANN. And it's role is
more broad than the conveyance of domains.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/27/2017 11:13 AM, Volker
Greimann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:fdf1fabd-c097-cc22-8be1-da811fc5c222@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<p>In my view, it belongs to the world, ICANN merely manages it.
<br>
</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 18:12 schrieb John
Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9ffe8252-ebec-c991-4893-2448661bea1a@bambenekconsulting.com">
<p>Except that the domain name system is not YOUR system, it
is ICANN's who has a very clear mandate for the security and
stability of the internet.</p>
<p>The purpose is NOT letting registrants get domains and
helping registries get paid. It never has been.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/27/2017 09:52 AM, Volker
Greimann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:07dde2e8-2bd6-2a96-5825-0e7cc629b997@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>I think we need to dig down even deeper initially.
Instead of RDS, the core of the matter is the need for the
data when defining the purpose for collection.</p>
<p>This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need
(certain elements of) the data to be able to properly
provide the business, invoice the customer, collect his
payments, send reminders and notices, protect the rights
of the customers in case of business failure, comply with
legal requirements like record-keeping, etc.". I am
leaving out any contractual requirements, as they do not
matter for the registrars' own purpose. These are external
purposes that the registrar would have to execute without
having an own, direct need for. <br>
</p>
<p>For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a
direct connection to the registrants. From a service
provision perspective, registries have no need for the
data, and no right to it, except maybe for purposes of
eligibility verification. <br>
</p>
<p>When going beyond registries to the general public, there
is no purpose that connects to the provision of the
service to the registrant directly. There also (in most
countries) is no legal requirement to collect and publish
this data. Yet there is still a need for the data, as we
have discussed in great detail. <br>
</p>
<p>So our first question always must be the following:</p>
<p>"How do we serve the needs of the general public that has
an interest in the ability of obtaining such data without
violating any applicable laws or the rights of the
registrant to the privacy of his data?"</p>
<p>This has to be the basis of any design decision and any
argument made in this group. <br>
</p>
<p>Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable
is a dangerous question as it effectively proposes to
ignore laws that we as a community do not like, at the
risk of contracted parties and to the detriment of the
beneficiaries of such laws. just because there has not
been any enforcement action in the past does not mean we
can ignore the law applicable to the individual contracted
parties. And we are not talking about jaywalking here,
some of these laws have significant penalties attached to
them, as we have also discussed before. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties
to be free to make business decisions cannot be absolute.
It has to be bound on the one side by ICANN policies and
the other side by applicable law. And these two external
pressures should not be in conflict with each other. If we
can achieve that while answering the basic question above,
our work is done. At least for the time being, as laws may
obviously change, but that can be taken into account as
well. Any discussion that seeks to circumvent this basic
question will ultimately lead to the failure of our work
and by extention to the end of whois. The latter due to
the incompatibility of current whois with applicable law.<br>
</p>
<p>I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise,
we already went a great way in determining what those
needs are and our current work to discuss data points goes
into that question as well, even though personally I feel
that by defining data points at this point and going into
the sticks in some of the discussions we are wasting time.
The question should never be "Do we need a Facebook
contact in the RDS?" and always be "What contacts are
needed as bare minimum to achieve needs X, Y, Z, ...". <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb
Greg Shatan:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+aOHUR2P3ETq727xJsbsiztsTUEYFXN8F3NuWv7HHKsCp7nqA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The "data
controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum. While
registrars and registries need to be free to make many
types of decisions in their own business judgment,
that cannot be an absolute rule. This is at odds with
the ICANN model, consensus policy, etc. In this case,
the data controllers are part of a larger ecosystem,
and the "needs" go beyond the individual business
needs of each data controller. (Indeed, the individual
data controller has its own database of information
for its business needs.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As I previously
noted, we are going back to first principles -- which
is not necessarily a bad thing. Why does ICANN (and
by extension, the Internet) need WHOIS/RDS? That is
the question. Not "why does a particular
[registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12
AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>So when will you start advocating the
collection and publication of WHOIS for internet
users? Because they would be connecting to your
network all the time...</p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div
class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">Am
26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek
via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p>"<font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">As for privacy proxy solving
the problem, it does not. Over
collection is not solved by providing
a proxy in the third party disclosure
mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to
needs."</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">I fundamentally disagree
because the purpose of ICANN is not
the mere facilitation of domain from
registry to registrant. The purpose is
the security and stability of the
internet and that means I have a need
to verify who is connecting to my
network and have a means of contacting
them. That point has never been made,
to my knowledge, to them.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">The point that removing that
ability of me being able to contact
domain owners does far MORE to REDUCE
the privacy of the registrants than
does publishing said information. We
talk often about verification
out-of-band for sensitive
communications. How can I do that
without a phone number?</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida
Grande">I will loudly and vigorously
argue that the path advocated will
make the problem FAR worse and not
better. Hopefully we don't get to the
point where I have actual data to
prove that.<br>
</font></font></p>
<br>
<div
class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">On
9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="+1"><font
face="Lucida Grande">As for privacy
proxy solving the problem, it does
not. Over collection is not solved by
providing a proxy in the third party
disclosure mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to
needs.</font></font></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
John Bambenek</pre>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
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Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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--------------------------------------------
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
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