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<p>And that is the point where you apply privacy by design Volker,
to guide you through that process, and as an end result you will
have an accountable and transparent process regardless of which
Data Protection law you are dealing with or have to take into
consideration. This also allows you to deal with DPA's in much
better fashion, as opposed to a backwards process. <br>
</p>
<p>Theo<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27-9-2017 16:52, Volker Greimann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:07dde2e8-2bd6-2a96-5825-0e7cc629b997@key-systems.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead of
RDS, the core of the matter is the need for the data when
defining the purpose for collection.</p>
<p>This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need (certain
elements of) the data to be able to properly provide the
business, invoice the customer, collect his payments, send
reminders and notices, protect the rights of the customers in
case of business failure, comply with legal requirements like
record-keeping, etc.". I am leaving out any contractual
requirements, as they do not matter for the registrars' own
purpose. These are external purposes that the registrar would
have to execute without having an own, direct need for. <br>
</p>
<p>For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a direct
connection to the registrants. From a service provision
perspective, registries have no need for the data, and no right
to it, except maybe for purposes of eligibility verification. <br>
</p>
<p>When going beyond registries to the general public, there is no
purpose that connects to the provision of the service to the
registrant directly. There also (in most countries) is no legal
requirement to collect and publish this data. Yet there is still
a need for the data, as we have discussed in great detail. <br>
</p>
<p>So our first question always must be the following:</p>
<p>"How do we serve the needs of the general public that has an
interest in the ability of obtaining such data without violating
any applicable laws or the rights of the registrant to the
privacy of his data?"</p>
<p>This has to be the basis of any design decision and any
argument made in this group. <br>
</p>
<p>Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is a
dangerous question as it effectively proposes to ignore laws
that we as a community do not like, at the risk of contracted
parties and to the detriment of the beneficiaries of such laws.
just because there has not been any enforcement action in the
past does not mean we can ignore the law applicable to the
individual contracted parties. And we are not talking about
jaywalking here, some of these laws have significant penalties
attached to them, as we have also discussed before. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to be
free to make business decisions cannot be absolute. It has to be
bound on the one side by ICANN policies and the other side by
applicable law. And these two external pressures should not be
in conflict with each other. If we can achieve that while
answering the basic question above, our work is done. At least
for the time being, as laws may obviously change, but that can
be taken into account as well. Any discussion that seeks to
circumvent this basic question will ultimately lead to the
failure of our work and by extention to the end of whois. The
latter due to the incompatibility of current whois with
applicable law.<br>
</p>
<p>I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we
already went a great way in determining what those needs are and
our current work to discuss data points goes into that question
as well, even though personally I feel that by defining data
points at this point and going into the sticks in some of the
discussions we are wasting time. The question should never be
"Do we need a Facebook contact in the RDS?" and always be "What
contacts are needed as bare minimum to achieve needs X, Y, Z,
...". <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Greg
Shatan:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+aOHUR2P3ETq727xJsbsiztsTUEYFXN8F3NuWv7HHKsCp7nqA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The "data
controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum. While
registrars and registries need to be free to make many types
of decisions in their own business judgment, that cannot be
an absolute rule. This is at odds with the ICANN model,
consensus policy, etc. In this case, the data controllers
are part of a larger ecosystem, and the "needs" go beyond
the individual business needs of each data controller.
(Indeed, the individual data controller has its own database
of information for its business needs.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As I previously
noted, we are going back to first principles -- which is not
necessarily a bad thing. Why does ICANN (and by extension,
the Internet) need WHOIS/RDS? That is the question. Not
"why does a particular [registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM,
Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>So when will you start advocating the collection and
publication of WHOIS for internet users? Because they
would be connecting to your network all the time...</p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">Am
26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p>"<font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">As
for privacy proxy solving the problem, it
does not. Over collection is not solved by
providing a proxy in the third party
disclosure mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to needs."</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I
fundamentally disagree because the purpose
of ICANN is not the mere facilitation of
domain from registry to registrant. The
purpose is the security and stability of the
internet and that means I have a need to
verify who is connecting to my network and
have a means of contacting them. That point
has never been made, to my knowledge, to
them.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">The
point that removing that ability of me being
able to contact domain owners does far MORE
to REDUCE the privacy of the registrants
than does publishing said information. We
talk often about verification out-of-band
for sensitive communications. How can I do
that without a phone number?</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I
will loudly and vigorously argue that the
path advocated will make the problem FAR
worse and not better. Hopefully we don't get
to the point where I have actual data to
prove that.<br>
</font></font></p>
<br>
<div class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">On
9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="+1"><font
face="Lucida Grande">As for privacy proxy
solving the problem, it does not. Over
collection is not solved by providing a
proxy in the third party disclosure
mechanism. It is still over-collection,
disproportionate to needs.</font></font></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
John Bambenek</pre>
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<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
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------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
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- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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