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<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead of
RDS, the core of the matter is the need for the data when defining
the purpose for collection.</p>
<p>This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need (certain
elements of) the data to be able to properly provide the business,
invoice the customer, collect his payments, send reminders and
notices, protect the rights of the customers in case of business
failure, comply with legal requirements like record-keeping,
etc.". I am leaving out any contractual requirements, as they do
not matter for the registrars' own purpose. These are external
purposes that the registrar would have to execute without having
an own, direct need for. <br>
</p>
<p>For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a direct
connection to the registrants. From a service provision
perspective, registries have no need for the data, and no right to
it, except maybe for purposes of eligibility verification. <br>
</p>
<p>When going beyond registries to the general public, there is no
purpose that connects to the provision of the service to the
registrant directly. There also (in most countries) is no legal
requirement to collect and publish this data. Yet there is still a
need for the data, as we have discussed in great detail. <br>
</p>
<p>So our first question always must be the following:</p>
<p>"How do we serve the needs of the general public that has an
interest in the ability of obtaining such data without violating
any applicable laws or the rights of the registrant to the privacy
of his data?"</p>
<p>This has to be the basis of any design decision and any argument
made in this group. <br>
</p>
<p>Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is a
dangerous question as it effectively proposes to ignore laws that
we as a community do not like, at the risk of contracted parties
and to the detriment of the beneficiaries of such laws. just
because there has not been any enforcement action in the past does
not mean we can ignore the law applicable to the individual
contracted parties. And we are not talking about jaywalking here,
some of these laws have significant penalties attached to them, as
we have also discussed before. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to be
free to make business decisions cannot be absolute. It has to be
bound on the one side by ICANN policies and the other side by
applicable law. And these two external pressures should not be in
conflict with each other. If we can achieve that while answering
the basic question above, our work is done. At least for the time
being, as laws may obviously change, but that can be taken into
account as well. Any discussion that seeks to circumvent this
basic question will ultimately lead to the failure of our work and
by extention to the end of whois. The latter due to the
incompatibility of current whois with applicable law.<br>
</p>
<p>I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we
already went a great way in determining what those needs are and
our current work to discuss data points goes into that question as
well, even though personally I feel that by defining data points
at this point and going into the sticks in some of the discussions
we are wasting time. The question should never be "Do we need a
Facebook contact in the RDS?" and always be "What contacts are
needed as bare minimum to achieve needs X, Y, Z, ...". <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Greg
Shatan:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+aOHUR2P3ETq727xJsbsiztsTUEYFXN8F3NuWv7HHKsCp7nqA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The "data controllers"
here do not exist in a vacuum. While registrars and
registries need to be free to make many types of decisions in
their own business judgment, that cannot be an absolute rule.
This is at odds with the ICANN model, consensus policy, etc.
In this case, the data controllers are part of a larger
ecosystem, and the "needs" go beyond the individual business
needs of each data controller. (Indeed, the individual data
controller has its own database of information for its
business needs.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As I previously noted,
we are going back to first principles -- which is not
necessarily a bad thing. Why does ICANN (and by extension,
the Internet) need WHOIS/RDS? That is the question. Not "why
does a particular [registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM, Volker
Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>So when will you start advocating the collection and
publication of WHOIS for internet users? Because they
would be connecting to your network all the time...</p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">Am
26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p>"<font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">As
for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does
not. Over collection is not solved by
providing a proxy in the third party
disclosure mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to needs."</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I
fundamentally disagree because the purpose of
ICANN is not the mere facilitation of domain
from registry to registrant. The purpose is
the security and stability of the internet and
that means I have a need to verify who is
connecting to my network and have a means of
contacting them. That point has never been
made, to my knowledge, to them.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">The
point that removing that ability of me being
able to contact domain owners does far MORE to
REDUCE the privacy of the registrants than
does publishing said information. We talk
often about verification out-of-band for
sensitive communications. How can I do that
without a phone number?</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I will
loudly and vigorously argue that the path
advocated will make the problem FAR worse and
not better. Hopefully we don't get to the
point where I have actual data to prove that.<br>
</font></font></p>
<br>
<div class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">On
9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="+1"><font
face="Lucida Grande">As for privacy proxy
solving the problem, it does not. Over
collection is not solved by providing a proxy
in the third party disclosure mechanism. It
is still over-collection, disproportionate to
needs.</font></font></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
John Bambenek</pre>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
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------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
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- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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