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<p>Well, the "world" is not the governing entity. Neither are
registrars, or for that matter me. There is an organization
chartered for this purpose and only one, ICANN. And it's role is
more broad than the conveyance of domains.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/27/2017 11:13 AM, Volker Greimann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:fdf1fabd-c097-cc22-8be1-da811fc5c222@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>In my view, it belongs to the world, ICANN merely manages it. <br>
</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 18:12 schrieb John
Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9ffe8252-ebec-c991-4893-2448661bea1a@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<p>Except that the domain name system is not YOUR system, it is
ICANN's who has a very clear mandate for the security and
stability of the internet.</p>
<p>The purpose is NOT letting registrants get domains and
helping registries get paid. It never has been.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/27/2017 09:52 AM, Volker
Greimann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:07dde2e8-2bd6-2a96-5825-0e7cc629b997@key-systems.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead
of RDS, the core of the matter is the need for the data when
defining the purpose for collection.</p>
<p>This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need
(certain elements of) the data to be able to properly
provide the business, invoice the customer, collect his
payments, send reminders and notices, protect the rights of
the customers in case of business failure, comply with legal
requirements like record-keeping, etc.". I am leaving out
any contractual requirements, as they do not matter for the
registrars' own purpose. These are external purposes that
the registrar would have to execute without having an own,
direct need for. <br>
</p>
<p>For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a
direct connection to the registrants. From a service
provision perspective, registries have no need for the data,
and no right to it, except maybe for purposes of eligibility
verification. <br>
</p>
<p>When going beyond registries to the general public, there
is no purpose that connects to the provision of the service
to the registrant directly. There also (in most countries)
is no legal requirement to collect and publish this data.
Yet there is still a need for the data, as we have discussed
in great detail. <br>
</p>
<p>So our first question always must be the following:</p>
<p>"How do we serve the needs of the general public that has
an interest in the ability of obtaining such data without
violating any applicable laws or the rights of the
registrant to the privacy of his data?"</p>
<p>This has to be the basis of any design decision and any
argument made in this group. <br>
</p>
<p>Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is
a dangerous question as it effectively proposes to ignore
laws that we as a community do not like, at the risk of
contracted parties and to the detriment of the beneficiaries
of such laws. just because there has not been any
enforcement action in the past does not mean we can ignore
the law applicable to the individual contracted parties. And
we are not talking about jaywalking here, some of these laws
have significant penalties attached to them, as we have also
discussed before. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to
be free to make business decisions cannot be absolute. It
has to be bound on the one side by ICANN policies and the
other side by applicable law. And these two external
pressures should not be in conflict with each other. If we
can achieve that while answering the basic question above,
our work is done. At least for the time being, as laws may
obviously change, but that can be taken into account as
well. Any discussion that seeks to circumvent this basic
question will ultimately lead to the failure of our work and
by extention to the end of whois. The latter due to the
incompatibility of current whois with applicable law.<br>
</p>
<p>I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we
already went a great way in determining what those needs are
and our current work to discuss data points goes into that
question as well, even though personally I feel that by
defining data points at this point and going into the sticks
in some of the discussions we are wasting time. The question
should never be "Do we need a Facebook contact in the RDS?"
and always be "What contacts are needed as bare minimum to
achieve needs X, Y, Z, ...". <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb
Greg Shatan:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+aOHUR2P3ETq727xJsbsiztsTUEYFXN8F3NuWv7HHKsCp7nqA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The "data
controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum. While
registrars and registries need to be free to make many
types of decisions in their own business judgment, that
cannot be an absolute rule. This is at odds with the
ICANN model, consensus policy, etc. In this case, the
data controllers are part of a larger ecosystem, and the
"needs" go beyond the individual business needs of each
data controller. (Indeed, the individual data controller
has its own database of information for its business
needs.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As I previously
noted, we are going back to first principles -- which is
not necessarily a bad thing. Why does ICANN (and by
extension, the Internet) need WHOIS/RDS? That is the
question. Not "why does a particular
[registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM,
Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>So when will you start advocating the collection
and publication of WHOIS for internet users?
Because they would be connecting to your network
all the time...</p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div
class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">Am
26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p>"<font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">As
for privacy proxy solving the problem,
it does not. Over collection is not
solved by providing a proxy in the third
party disclosure mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to
needs."</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I
fundamentally disagree because the
purpose of ICANN is not the mere
facilitation of domain from registry to
registrant. The purpose is the security
and stability of the internet and that
means I have a need to verify who is
connecting to my network and have a
means of contacting them. That point has
never been made, to my knowledge, to
them.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">The
point that removing that ability of me
being able to contact domain owners does
far MORE to REDUCE the privacy of the
registrants than does publishing said
information. We talk often about
verification out-of-band for sensitive
communications. How can I do that
without a phone number?</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I
will loudly and vigorously argue that
the path advocated will make the problem
FAR worse and not better. Hopefully we
don't get to the point where I have
actual data to prove that.<br>
</font></font></p>
<br>
<div
class="m_7250297442223400888moz-cite-prefix">On
9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="+1"><font
face="Lucida Grande">As for privacy
proxy solving the problem, it does not.
Over collection is not solved by
providing a proxy in the third party
disclosure mechanism. It is still
over-collection, disproportionate to
needs.</font></font></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
John Bambenek</pre>
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<pre class="m_7250297442223400888moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
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------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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--------------------------------------------
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Best regards,
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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