<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Considering your fourth point, then we are entirely in agreement. That was exactly the point of my excerpt, the opinion says if EU law conflicts with other jurisdictions, pick EU law even if that causes say a Brazilian entity to break its own country's laws. <br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi John, <br>
</p>
<p>first of all, I would appreciate not being screamed at. Let's
keep this civil.<br>
</p>
<p>Second, no one is saying legal compliance will be easy to
achieve. Exactly because it is hard should we make certain that we
do not make it harder.</p>
<p>Third, our contract is beside the point because the contract
cannot force us to break the law. That carve-out is included, and
has been confirmed by ICANN time and again. <br>
</p>
<p>Fourth, I agree with the opinion, unless doing so would cause
breaking laws of another country (as Rubens pointed out with the
Brazilian example).</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 14:31 schrieb John
Bambenek:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:747FC8C9-B5B0-4ECD-993F-4A13C1B16F06@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>Which is an entirely different argument completely and wholly
irrelevant to the case at hand. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Businesses operating online have no
way to verify the citizenship of their customers. So a US
business could be selling domains primarily to US persons, not
market or promote anywhere in the EU and end up having those
customers (let's take the obvious case of expats), and if
conflicts of law arise, violations of US law be damned, obey EU
law. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Yeah, that will end well.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">So let's go back to your example. So
foreign company wants X for US government to operate in US. They
must agree to certain terms to do so. They are free to operate
where they are now, but if they wants X from us, we want Y.
That's basically a contractural arrangement. So to answer an
earlier question, why do registries and registrars have to run
whois and allow data transfer? BECAUSE YOU KNOWINGLY AND
WILLINGLY SIGNED A CONTRACT THAT REQUIRES IT.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">But in the present matter, we aren't
talking about people with bona fide operations in the EU. The
opinion says you can't distinguish between natural and legal
persons, even if we did require passports it wouldn't solve the
problem (dual citizens) and would create a huge data
minimization problem. The legal opinion basically says ignore
everyone else, follow EU law. Taken to its logical conclusion, a
gas station in Pittsburgh should accede to EU law even when it
conflicts with US law because its possible an EU citizen wanted
a tank of gas. Surely you can see the problematic aspects of
that as a lawyer. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Likely you also can see why that
portion of the law will ultimately be unenforceable too. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 27, 2017, at 4:28 AM, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Speaking of imperialism, I know at least one country that
takes the concept of sanctions so far that even foreign
companies are prohibited of doing business with certain
other countries that their countries have no beef with if
they want to continue to be able to do business in that one
country. So I do not beliefe Europeans are alone here,
especially when considering that it comes down to enforcing
ones own laws.</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.09.2017 um 00:37 schrieb
John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:93492E30-D4A0-4AF0-8E78-3085AB555BCA@bambenekconsulting.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<div>That's one consequence of imperialism, countries that
don't want to be told what to do will simply disallow
Europeans from showing up. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Some basic things I derived
from this opinion is that distinguishing between natural
and legal persons is hard and we shouldn't try it.
Distinguishing between EU registrants and non-EU
registrants is hard so we shouldn't try it. And Internet
governance should be primarily a factor of EU law even in
the case of conflicts. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Building a wall is quickly
becoming the rational move. <br>
<br>
--
<div>John Bambenek</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 26, 2017, at 17:17, John Horton <<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" moz-do-not-send="true">john.horton@legitscript.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#444444">Much
of this problem goes away if we all agree that
EU-based registrars should henceforth only be
allowed to accept registrants in the EU. Aside from
the effect on EU registrars' revenue, what's the
logical argument against that from a policy
perspective? </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#444444">After
all, isn't the purpose of the GDPR to protect <u>EU
residents</u>? </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">John
Horton<br>
President and CEO,
LegitScript</font>
<div><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ" moz-do-not-send="true" height="36" width="96"><br>
<div>
<p style="margin:0.0px
0.0px 0.0px
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</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><font color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><font color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a> | <font color="#ff9900"><u><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Blog</a></u></font> |<font color="#ff9900"> <a href="http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><font color="#ff9900">Newsletter</font></a></font><br>
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</font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><font color="#ff9900"><img src="https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.png" moz-do-not-send="true" height="96" width="46"><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ" moz-do-not-send="true" height="96" width="47"><br>
</font></p>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:10
PM, Jeremy Kennelly <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeremy@csec.ca" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jeremy@csec.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Especially since those laws are
not immutable, so even if we agreed in principle
that they were an appropriate baseline today,
even by the time today's interpretation was
codified the legal understanding and/or the
regulations themselves are likely to have
changed.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">It must feel to the group like I
and others are being difficult on this issue
but this is not a good foundation for an
international standard. Do we maybe need to
look at standard that provides a baseline
level of privacy protection and
guidance/building blocks for registrars and
other constituents with stricter legal
requirements?</div>
</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sep 26, 2017
5:54 PM, "John Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>I want to point out something on
page 17, namely this quote:</p>
<p>"We think the best way to avoid
conflicts would be to try to bring
the data processing practices of
ICANN and the registrars in line
with EU data protection law as much
as possible, and to give primacy to
EU data protection requirements when
they clash with those of other
jurisdictions."</p>
<p>This is a patently offensive claim
of European imperialism. One
ventures down this road with great
consequences.<br>
</p>
j<br>
<br>
<div class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283moz-cite-prefix">On
9/26/2017 4:29 PM, Chuck wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">As
most of you recall, at the
request of multiple WG
members, we decided in early
June to engage a law firm with
experience in European data
protection law to provide our
WG with independent answers to
the same questions we asked
the European data protection
experts earlier in the year.
The final report from that
effort is what Marika sent to
the list shortly after our WG
call today; it is attached to
this message as well.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">All
members are requested to
review this report by Friday
of this week if possible. The
leadership team has prepared a
list of principles that are
excerpted from the WSGR Final
Report and/or from the Data
Expert answers that we think
will be relevant to our
ongoing work. We have asked
the small advisory group that
we formed in early June to
review the principles and let
us know if the excerpts are
accurate and complete. After
they have had time to respond,
we will finalize the
principles document and send
it to the full WG for all to
review; our goal is to do that
by the end of this week so
that we can use it in our WG
meeting next week.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It is
the opinion of the leadership
team that the information the
Data Protection experts
provided has been confirmed by
WSGR in their final report,
albeit with more detail in
some cases. We also believe
that our objective of
obtaining an independent
analysis of the questions has
been met, so it is now time
for us to put the information
to use in answering the first
four questions in our charter
and that is the plan starting
next week. To facilitate
that, the principles will be
mapped to the first four
charter questions, a task that
is now underway.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I am
sure this WG could debate the
answers received for the next
six months but we are not
going to do that. We received
answers from the Data
Protection experts. Some
feared bias so we obtained an
independent analysis. That
analysis confirms the
information that we had
already been given with some
clarifying insights. It is
now time to apply that
information to our
deliberation and finish
answering critical questions
in our charter and develop RDS
requirements for Phase 1.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">If I
left anything out or anyone on
the leadership team wants to
add anything, please feel free
to do.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Chuck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_6012707678400650845_m_-8976630073124977283__MailEndCompose" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
<a class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.<wbr>org</a>
[<a class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marika
Konings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
September 26, 2017 9:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] WSGR
Final Memorandum</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear
All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">As
discussed during today’s
meeting, please find attached
for your review and
consideration the final
memorandum from Wilson Sonsini
Goodrich & Rosati, LLP
(WSGR) concerning the final
responses to EU data
protection questions re. gTLD
Registration Directory data.
Chuck will follow up on this
message shortly with further
instructions and next steps. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best
regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Marika</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Marika
Konings</span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Vice
President, Policy
Development Support – GNSO,
Internet Corporation for
Assigned Names and Numbers
(ICANN) </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Email:
<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">marika.konings@icann.org</a> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Follow
the GNSO via Twitter
@ICANN_GNSO</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Find
out more about the GNSO by
taking our <a href="http://learn.icann.org/courses/gnso" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">interactive
courses</a> and visiting
the <a href="http://gnso.icann.org/sites/gnso.icann.org/files/gnso/presentations/policy-efforts.htm#newcomers" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">GNSO
Newcomer pages</a>. </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
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<pre class="m_6012707678400650845m_-8976630073124977283moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
John Bambenek</pre>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" moz-do-not-send="true">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" moz-do-not-send="true">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" moz-do-not-send="true">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" moz-do-not-send="true">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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