<div dir="ltr">Yes, you are correct, and I don't like it very much either. My company's domain has that issue even up till last year. I had asked some of my spam fighting friends why some of our outbound e-mail went in spam folders, and the response back was to first of all drop WHOIS privacy. But since the domain is several years old and has many other datapoints that point to a good reputation, the vast majority of the mail does go through.<div><br></div><div>That's the problem here, legitimate registrants are paying the price for the massive amount of abuse happening on the Internet. Your choice to use privacy in an ideal world shouldn't penalize your domain, but since your domain is in the company is a lot of bad folks, your domain will be treated like a criminal. The trust in the gTLD system, and especially new TLDs, is so low, that the operation of the whole system is degrading. That means the value and quality of your own products you sell, such as new TLDs, is degraded, due to this loss of trust. </div><div><br></div><div>I personally have no problem with those ccTLDs that entirely use WHOIS privacy and also experience low rates of abuse. dot SE is one good example. But if we want to be like dot SE then we should figure out how to devise the system to be otherwise not as friendly to abuse as it currently is.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Allison,</p>
<p>thank you for your explanation, which makes sense. It does seem
though that your description of a domain registration that could
"flip the switch" perfectly matches that of the domain I just
registered for legitimate purposes:</p>
<p>1) Newly registered? Check!</p>
<p>2) Not pointing to the same IP for more than a month? Check
(since it is a new registration, that would be hard )!</p>
<p>3) New TLD? Check! (I actually like using those - eat what you
sell, I guess!)</p>
<p>4) Whois privacy turned on? Check!</p>
<p>So the fact that I do not want the world to know where I live
could be the deciding factor for you to limit my enjoyment of my
property, and limit my ability to send emails to third parties
using that domain name as email address. I do not think I like
that very much.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.09.2017 um 17:19 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">No, so here is how reputation works. Privacy is one
factor out of many. When assessing a domain, you have datapoints
like the date registered, the registrar, the TLD, yes/no on
whois privacy, any exposed contents of whois, the IP it points
to, and a number of other factors.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Say there is a years-old domain, that has pointed to the
same IP for years, but has WHOIS privacy turned on, and no bad
incidents attached to it. That domain has an otherwise good
reputation, despite the WHOIS privacy it is fine and it won't
be blocked.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now imagine another domain, which is newly registered, less
than a month old and has WHOIS privacy turned on, has pointed
to the same IP for less than a month, and has no bad incidents
attached to it. It's status is ambiguous, and the fact that
WHOIS privacy is turned on may be the deciding factor flipping
the switch to filter any emails sent using that domain. If the
WHOIS privacy was turned off and the details pointed to a
known company, that may flip the switch the other way and the
domain may not be blocked.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's an oversimplification but that's how it works.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 11:13 AM,
Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Allison, <br>
</p>
<p>I do not appreciate the comment you made and do not
agree that there is a difference, but I think we should
take part of our discussion off the list as it does not
benefit the rest of the group. You obviously seem to be
unwilling to conform to the standards we all agreed to
and I will take that into account going forward.</p>
<p>The claim that use of privacy indicates a higher
propensity for abuse as alleged by Michael was not
supported by the study. While privacy may be an
indicator if all other stars align, by itself it is
not.Once privacy becomes the norm, it will mean nothing.
<br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-cite-prefix">Am
29.09.2017 um 17:02 schrieb allison nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>>>Again, I resent your allegation and
expect you to take it back. Name-calling and loosely
flung accusations of trolling do not conform to the
standard of behavior we all agreed to.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See my explanation in my other email. I did not
call you A troll, and i was not calling you names. i
described your behavior as trolling and i explained
why in the other thread. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>>>I must admit that I have not read that
other study yet, so I cannot comment on their
conclusion. This study here however reached another
conclusion:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"The analysis of the use of WHOIS Privacy and
Proxy</div>
<div>services leads us to conclude that the usage of a
WHOIS</div>
<div>Privacy and Proxy services by itself is not a
reliable indicator</div>
<div>of malicious activity. Apart from the peaks, the
usage of</div>
<div>Privacy and Proxy services for abusive domains is
not that</div>
<div>high (see Figure 28, Figure 29)."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are once again misinterpreting the simple
english in that sentence. It is saying the use of
WHOIS privacy *BY ITSELF* is not a reliable
indicator of malicious activity. Meaning, in a
vaccuum, with no other information about the domain,
it doesn't guarantee the domain is malicious. If you
actually understood the problem space, or read any
of the other 32 pages of the study, you would
discover that domain reputation relies on a large
number of indicators and WHOIS privacy is only one
indicator, and that the sentence is neither
vindication nor damnation of the service.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 10:37
AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Again, I resent your allegation and expect
you to take it back. Name-calling and loosely
flung accusations of trolling do not conform
to the standard of behavior we all agreed to.</p>
<p>I must admit that I have not read that other
study yet, so I cannot comment on their
conclusion. This study here however reached
another conclusion:</p>
<p>"The analysis of the use of WHOIS Privacy and
Proxy<br>
services leads us to conclude that the usage
of a WHOIS<br>
Privacy and Proxy services by itself is not a
reliable indicator<br>
of malicious activity. Apart from the peaks,
the usage of<br>
Privacy and Proxy services for abusive domains
is not that<br>
high (see Figure 28, Figure 29)."</p>
<p>Volker</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-cite-prefix">Am
29.09.2017 um 16:15 schrieb allison nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div>Then you should have read the exact
next sentence following the one that you
took to vaguely support your argument:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"There are many legitimate reasons why
someone may want</div>
<div>to conceal possession of a domain name.
The usage of a</div>
<div>WHOIS Privacy and Proxy services by
itself is, therefore not a</div>
<div>reliable single indicator of malicious
activity.<b> A previous study</b></div>
<div><b>by National Physical Laboratories
[44], however did find that</b></div>
<div><b>a significant portion of abusive
domains use Privacy and Proxy</b></div>
<div><b>services.</b>"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are trolling once again.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 29,
2017 at 10:11 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Not really, since Mike was alleging
that there is a correlation between
the use of whois privacy and abuse,
whereas the study says the opposite.
<br>
</p>
<p>Whois data may have its use for
fighting abuse, but private
registrations are not an indicator
of abuse, according to the study. I
have not seen a study that showed
there is a correlation.</p>
<span class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-cite-prefix">Am
29.09.2017 um 15:05 schrieb John
Bambenek:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>I think you mistake his
point. Domain whois data IS
useful in fighting abuse
according to everyone who
actually fights abuse. The
report referenced making the
statement it did shows there
remains a misunderstanding on
that point. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 29, 2017, at 3:20 AM,
Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p>Hi Theo,</p>
<p>it is interesting that
despite studies showing
there is no correlation
between domain abuse and
use of domain privacy, the
same argument is being
raised again and again.
from my own experience of
looking at the abuse
complaints we receive, I
note that only a small
fraction of abusive
registrations use our
privacy functions. In most
cases, harvested real data
is used instead. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sadag-final-09aug17-en.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/en/syste<wbr>m/files/files/sadag-final-09au<wbr>g17-en.pdf</a><br>
<br>
This report mentions: The
usage of Privacy or Proxy
Services by itself is not
a reliable indicator of
abuse.<br>
<br>
Thanks again, <br>
<br>
Theo <br>
<br>
Again it is clear now,
thanks all. <br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-cite-prefix">On
28-9-2017 20:50, Dotzero
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>To add to what
Allison has
indicated,
websites do
analysis of these
sorts of
datapoints for
evaluating
transactions for
fraud and
potential abuse.
For example,
signups form
domains that have
private
registrations have
a very high
propensity to be
related to abuse.
Signups and visits
to our websites
from IP addresses
belonging to
hosting providers
have an even
higher correlation
with abuse (how
many endusers
browse the web
from severs in
datacenters?).<br>
<br>
</div>
This is not police
action, it is
organizations
protecting
themselves, their
other users and the
internet at large
from abusive
activity.<br>
<br>
</div>
Michael Hammer<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at
2:33 PM, allison
nixon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Reputation
is based on a
lot of different
points not just
contents of
WHOIS data. If
the .EU TLD can
keep its
customer base
clean, there
isn't much need
for WHOIS data
for the most
part, however
this group
doesn't make
policy for
ccTLDs. For
other TLDs that
this group does
recommend policy
for, for
example, .XYZ,
which boasts a
greater-than-90-percent
rate of
maliciousness,
any legitimate
domain in that
space will need
some other
points of
reputation to
make up for
that. WHOIS is
part of that,
including the
age, and actual
contact details.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said,
WHOIS data is
an important
part of
tracing
ownership and
it can have
consequences
for the
registrant.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recently
we had to deal
with a ccTLD
of .ir that
was being used
to control
large botnets.
The current
and historical
WHOIS data
showed signs
that a
legitimate
registrant's
account was
stolen to do
this. Thus,
when the
complaint was
sent to the
registrar, the
registrant was
not accused of
running
botnets, but
instead the
registrar was
alerted to an
abuse of the
service and
they could
take action
accordingly.
If the
ownership of
this domain
could not be
traced, and if
there were not
skilled
investigators
on the other
end, would the
registrant
have been in
danger of
going to an
Iranian
prison? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It turns
out, the ccTLD
of .ir was
specifically
chosen because
the criminals
thought the
poor
international
relations
would hamper
law
enforcement
action.
However WHOIS
and the
transparency
it provides
allowed people
to discover
the truth and
prevent
serious
problems. By
locking up
WHOIS behind
court orders,
these
cross-border
issues will
become worse.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, to
be clear since
a lot of
people can't
seem to tell
the
difference,
everything we
did was well
within the
bounds of
civil action,
we weren't
"pretending to
be the police"
or any of the
other things
people in this
group accuse
security
companies of
doing when
they deal with
malware. Any
member of the
public can
file an abuse
complaint.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878HOEnZb">
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Sep 28,
2017 at 2:10
PM, theo
geurts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Allison, <br>
</p>
<p>Does this
problem also
exsist with
TLDs like .EU,
.NL, .DE, .FR
just to name a
few ccTLDs?</p>
<p>Curious, <br>
</p>
<p>Theo <br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878m_-3822653643895831728h5">
<br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878m_-3822653643895831728m_-8357489614026739257moz-cite-prefix">On
28-9-2017
19:42, allison
nixon wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>>>
So, I can see
a day that if
privacy
advocates
and/or EU
legislation
fears prevent
such a Best
Practice as
proper WHOIS
records, the
service
providers will
simply choose
practices,
such as 'you
cannot access
our service
unless you
have public
whois
information
available'.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's
already
happening. Try
sending an
e-mail using a
domain behind
WHOIS privacy.
Some anti-spam
systems drop
it straight in
the garbage
because WHOIS
privacy is
already a
negative
reputation
point. If
WHOIS gets
shut down, I
fully expect
groups like
Spamhaus,
M3AAWG, APWG,
etc, to
publish a set
of guidelines
that
registrants
need to abide
by in order to
send mail, or
be accessible
by people
behind
corporate
firewalls that
block based on
reputation.
ICANN must
understand
that they are
at risk of
losing
relevancy if
they want to
take this
hardline
approach,
because if a
law breaks the
continued
functioning of
a network, the
network will
route around
it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Look at
the "cookies"
EU law. Did
that actually
stop any
websites from
using cookies?
No, it just
created a
popup that no
one reads but
everyone
clicks through
to visit the
website.
Because
breaking
cookies breaks
websites. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>>>Some
of us have
real jobs
too..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>which is
the main
reason why i
can't spend 8
hours every
day watching
this group,
unlike some
people here
who have been
active in this
group for
years now. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My
response to
Chuck's email
earlier, I
bolded the
responses and
tagged the
start and end
of my replies
for clarity:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">"independent
answers to the
same questions
we asked the
European data
protection
experts
earlier in the
year"<br>
[Chuck Gomes]
That was a
request from
WG members who
felt that the
DP experts
might be
biased. The
questions were
developed by
the WG. There
were two
primary
reasons for
using the same
questions: 1)
both groups
would be
responding to
the same
questions and
therefore make
it easy to
compare; 2)
the questions
were approved
by the WG.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b><allison>I
don't think
anyone accused
the DP experts
of being
biased. The
objection was
that the
questions
themselves
were biased.
The words
"phishing" and
"spam" and
"malware"
never once
appeared in
this entire
document,
despite being
major core
issues. The
only abuse
issues that
were focused
on were in
relation to
intellectual
property
violation and
harassment of
women, both of
which are not
the major
issues most of
us deal with
on a daily
basis(not to
belittle them
but they are
generally not
the reason why
we are here
today). The
word "fraud"
was mentioned
once in a
question and
then never
directly
addressed in
the response.</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>Additionally,
my entire
industry was
grossly
misrepresented
in question
#6. None of us
operate with
police powers,
and none of us
pretend to
have any. When
we submit a
complaint to a
registrar
about one of
their
customers
breaking the
law, the
illegality of
the act
provides
necessary
justification
for the
registrar to
drop the
customer
without a
refund. This
is not
prosecution of
a crime, and
claiming it is
such is a lie.
Evidence of
breaking the
law is
necessary
because
registrars
aren't just
going to take
down any
customer we
say we don't
like. I wholly
object to the
entire line
they continued
on about
cybersecurity
companies and
"quasi-police
powers",
because the
question never
differentiated
between civil
and criminal
actions and it
was therefore
misleading. </b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>None
of the
questions
addressed the
issues that
registrants
have where
their WHOIS
and other
reputation
points affect
the de-facto
functionality
of a domain,
for example a
domain's
functionality
is hampered
when it is on
blocklists. Or
if someone
sends a
complaint
against the
domain and has
no tools to
differentiate
the registrant
from the
criminal (as
registrar
accounts are
often hacked),
then the
incorrect
accusation can
also affect
the
operability of
the domain as
it is
mistakenly
taken down in
confusion.
None of the
questions ask
about
conflicts
between GDPR
and basic
network-level-functionality
of domains.</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>Also,
none of the
questions ask
if a free
no-obligation
alternative
(whois privacy
protect)
enhances the
validity of
consent given
for making
WHOIS records
public.
</allison></b></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">So
we weren't
allowed to ask
questions of
these legal
experts? You
know, they
can't
magically
divine all
legitimate use
cases. The
session with
the EU data
protection
experts
earlier this
year is the
exact same one
we objected to
because anti
abuse use
cases got
exactly zero
representation.
So why choose
that exact set
of questions
again
especially
since an
entire group
of people have
joined the
group
afterwards(actually,
due to this
specific
problem of
lack of
representation)?
And then label
it "final",
really.<br>
[Chuck Gomes]
We didn’t ask
them to
consider use
cases except
as they were
relevant to
the questions
we asked; that
is our job and
we prepared a
list of those
a long time
ago. We asked
them to focus
on their
understanding
of European
Data
Protection
law. Our WG
has a good mix
of people that
use RDS data
for different
uses.</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div><b><allison>And
his answers
are borderline
useless. The
scenarios
presented were
extremely
poor, and not
reflecting
today's
Internet and
the problems
network
operators
face. For
example, when
he writes
"This means
that the term
'vital
interest' is
to be
interpreted as
referring to
an
individual’s
life, health,
safety, or
other such
interest that
is essential
to their
physical
wellbeing", he
goes on to
talk about IP
violations,
the rights of
a child, the
economic
interests of a
search engine,
finally
concluding "we
believe that
the </b><b>conditions
for using the
'legitimate
interests'
legal basis
would not be
satisfied".</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>That's
a complete
misrepresentation
of the
interests at
stake here.
The issue at
hand is not
the economic
interests of
one company
nor about mere
copyright
infringement.
The WHOIS data
resource is
used to combat
all types of
fraud,
international
espionage,
rigging of
elections, and
so many
hostile
attacks. Some
of these
attacks,
especially
DDOS,
frequently
threaten basic
functionality
of the
Internet. It
has an
international
strategic
value and
promotes
lawful
behavior far
more than it
hurts. It's
used to create
cleaner, safer
networks.
There are
countless
documented
instances
where WHOIS
played a key
role and where
the
replacement
system would
have allowed
the malicious
behavior to
continue. All
of these facts
have been
conveniently
left out of
the question,
and since the
lawyer can't
be expected to
know all this,
he has no
choice but to
conclude that
the legitimate
interests
provided are
too weak.
</allison></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Havent
gone through
it yet, will
do so as i get
time.
Expecting to
see the same
result one can
expect when
one doesn't
represent
entire groups
of
constituencies.<br>
[Chuck Gomes]
What do you
mean by
representing
‘entire groups
of
constituencies’?
Do you
represent an
entire
constituency?
Are you aware
of any
constituencies
who are not
represented in
the WG? If
so, please
encourage them
to
participate.</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b><allison>Dozens
of people
joined this
mailing list
after numerous
events
demonstrated
that this
working group
did not
consider the
overall well
being of the
Internet, and
had a
completely
skewed idea of
the problems
the Internet
faces today.
People were
outraged that
this group was
going in the
direction it
was going,
ignoring how
the Internet
actually
works. The
fact that
these
questions were
chosen- and
the fact that
the new
membership(especially
those that
joined after
the questions
were initially
asked) were
not given any
opportunity to
provide input
on questions
to the lawyer-
does not
reflect well
on the
leadership of
this working
group. Even
when the
original
questions were
created, as
far as I can
tell, only
people
physically
present at
that meeting
had any chance
to provide
input. For
those of us
with jobs in
operations,
being
ever-present
for this
working group
is impossible,
and none of us
have the
stamina that
some of the
people here
have, because
we are busy
working. </b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>At its
most
charitable
interpretation,
the choice of
these specific
questions
could be an
innocent
oversight or
miscommunication.
At its least
charitable, it
looks like
ICANN's money
was wasted on
a procedural
trick to keep
facts out of
the
conversation
and continue
to push a
narrow agenda.</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>People
from numerous
unrelated
Internet
companies and
law firms
flooded this
group earlier
this year once
sunshine was
shed on this
group's
activities.
Maybe that's
important.
Please take it
seriously.
</allison></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Wed, Sep 27,
2017 at 6:22
PM, Michael
Peddemors <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael@linuxmagic.com" target="_blank">michael@linuxmagic.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">IMHO,
If ICANN
cannot figure
out how to
make a proper
functioning
WHOIS policy,
we have to
remember that
the community
at large will,
and then
simply, ICANN
will loose
relevance on
this issue.<br>
<br>
No one passed
a law that a
mail server
had to have a
functioning
PTR record,
(well yes,
some
international
spam
legislations
clearly
spelled out
the need for
clearly
specifying the
operator) but
if you want to
send email
today,
functionally
you need a PTR
record.<br>
<br>
Only problem
is, that often
it is the
biggest
players that
set those
standards, and
it is the role
of
organizations
like ICANN to
level the
field, and
make sure that
directions
aren't
dictated by
the biggest
players on the
block, and
never more so
in a world of
consolidation
and cloud
providers.<br>
<br>
I think it was
Yahoo that was
one of the
first big
players to
simply not
accept
connections
from IP(s)
with no PTR,
and I know we
were one of
the early
adopters to
that
strategy..<br>
<br>
So, I can see
a day that if
privacy
advocates
and/or EU
legislation
fears prevent
such a Best
Practice as
proper WHOIS
records, the
service
providers will
simply choose
practices,
such as 'you
cannot access
our service
unless you
have public
whois
information
available'.<br>
<br>
It would be
far better if
ICANN can
understand the
importance of
that need, and
make a
statement that
everyone can
get behind and
point to, that
levels that
field, in
'spite' of
possible
contradictory
privacy
information.<br>
<br>
Let's just
simple keep
these two
conversations
separate, one
should NOT
affect the
other, this
isn't a
privacy vs
information
publishing
standards
issue, we can
have both.<br>
<br>
(And again, I
assert that
simply
'informed
consent' can
always deal
with any
situations
where they
conflict)<br>
<br>
--
Michael --<br>
<br>
PS, my concern
is that this
lengthy
wrangling
prevents real
work from
getting done,
and the
participants
who are
integral to
this
conversation
will fall by
the way side,
and the
lobbyist's
will simply
wear them down
..<br>
<br>
Some of us
have real jobs
too..<span><br>
<br>
<br>
On 17-09-27
02:58 PM, John
Bambenek via
gnso-rds-pdp-wg
wrote:<br>
</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
A simple
policy
proscription
would be, for
instance, to
say under US
law if you get
a domain under
the control of
a US
registrar, we
need you to
consent to
full
disclosure.
Don't like it,
pick a
European
ccTLD. I don't
advocate that,
mind you, but
that's the
kind of policy
balkanization
could produce.<br>
<br>
j<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/27/2017
04:31 PM, Paul
Keating wrote:<br>
</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
I am failing
to understand
how such a
walled-garden
approach will
solve
anything.<br>
<br>
</span><a href="http://1.EU" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">1.EU</a>
registrars/registries
would
still have to
deal with
GDPR.<br>
<br>
2.Registrars
are not aided
by the
distinction
since they
would still
end up with EU
customers and
EU registrant
data.<br>
<br>
PRK<br>
<br>
From: <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann<wbr>.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a>>>
on behalf of
jonathan
matkowsky <<a href="mailto:jonathan.matkowsky@riskiq.net" target="_blank">jonathan.matkowsky@riskiq.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:jonathan.matkowsky@riskiq.net" target="_blank">jonathan.matkowsky@ris<wbr>kiq.net</a>>><span><br>
Date:
Wednesday,
September 27,
2017 at 11:03
PM<br>
</span> To:
Rubens Kuhl
<<a href="mailto:rubensk@nic.br" target="_blank">rubensk@nic.br</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rubensk@nic.br" target="_blank">rubensk@nic.br</a>>><br>
Cc: RDS PDP WG
<<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.<wbr>org</a>>><span><br>
Subject: Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
WSGR Final
Memorandum<br>
<br>
Assuming
for argument's
sake that's
true without
taking any<br>
position
as I'm still
catching up
from a week
ago, I'm not
sure<br>
this
should be
dismissed
without
consideration
as a
possibility,<br>
although
obviously not
by any stretch
of the
imagination
ideal --><br>
non-EU
registrars
block EU
registrants,
and registries
contract<br>
with
non-EU
registrars.<br>
<br>
On Tue,
Sep 26, 2017
at 8:25 PM,
Rubens Kuhl
<<a href="mailto:rubensk@nic.br" target="_blank">rubensk@nic.br</a><br>
</span>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:rubensk@nic.br" target="_blank">rubensk@nic.br</a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
On Sep
26, 2017, at
7:17 PM, John
Horton<br>
<<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank">john.horton@legitscript.com</a><br>
</span><span>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank">john.horton@legitscrip<wbr>t.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Much
of this
problem goes
away if we all
agree that
EU-based<br>
registrars
should
henceforth
only be
allowed to
accept<br>
registrants in
the EU. Aside
from the
effect on EU<br>
registrars'
revenue,
what's the
logical
argument
against that<br>
from a
policy
perspective?<br>
<br>
</span>
After all,
isn't the
purpose of the
GDPR to
protect _EU<br>
residents_?<br>
</blockquote>
<span> <br>
That's
correct, but
the conclusion
is not. Non-EU
registrars<br>
are
also subject
to GDPR if
targeting EU
customers,
which<br>
could
be as simple
as providing
services in EU
languages and<br>
accepting
registration
transactions
from the EU.<br>
So,
for the
problem to go
away non-EU
registrars
would need to<br>
block
EU
registrants,
and registries
would only be
able to<br>
enter
contracts with
non-EU
registrars.<br>
<br>
So EU
users would
either be
happy using
numeric IP
addresses,<br>
or
develop a
naming system
of their own.
Then we would
have<br>
balkanisation,
this time
actually
including the
original
balkans.<br>
<br>
<br>
Rubens<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
"Catch the
Magic of
Linux..."<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------<br>
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Peddemors,
President/CEO
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Inc.<br>
Visit us at <a href="http://www.linuxmagic.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linuxmagic.com</a>
@linuxmagic<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------<br>
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More Info <a href="http://www.wizard.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.wizard.ca</a><br>
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------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------<br>
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Note to self:
Pillage BEFORE
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<br>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
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Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br>
<span>gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475m_422569795287717878moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346m_7645433289719182475moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973m_6284284982160403346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_9140232837573149973gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">______________________________<wbr>___<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_9140232837573149973moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
------------------------------<wbr>--------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:+49%206894%209396851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="m_9140232837573149973moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
</div>