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<p>I still think that the only date that should be included is the
creation date of a domain name as all potential previous
registrations of the same string refer to a different domain
object. <br>
</p>
<p>A domain that once existed and has been permanently deleted at
the registry level is not the same as a domain registered when the
string became available again, and we should not try to conflate
both into one object. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 02.10.2017 um 05:28 schrieb jonathan
matkowsky:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALsyHBn_SNs+pQ_5U6u-3_Q8-XLg3TP6z_K02viANdDefAA0LA@mail.gmail.com">
<div>
<div dir="auto">The point is that without it, you run the risk
of misunderstandings of what the creation date implies for
starters. While that could be mitigated arguably with
disclaimers, there’s no personal information in indicating
whether there are known prior registration dates and the
expert working group recommended that original registration
date be included. This is just more accurate. Plus the Whois
is the most direct evidence without necessarily having to ask
for documents that would include personal information. So this
potentially reduces the need for personal information
disclosure. If someone wants to get their domain back that
inadvertently lapsed, there would be an indicator that it was
previously registered without having to necessarily prove it.
Plus records can more easily be forged. This couldn’t be.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 12:30 PM Stephanie Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Surely there
are many other ways an individual could prove the
original registration date of a domain, other than
it being in the WHOIS?</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Stephanie
Perrin</font></font><br>
</p>
</div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
<div class="m_2866700487414258140moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-09-28 18:22, jonathan matkowsky wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>There is a lot going on in the last week, and I am
*still* playing catch up.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>I apologize with the religious high holidays at
the end of last week and my travel right before
that, I dropped the ball, but I want to emphasize
that the poll that was circulated framing the
issue as to whether there is a requirement for the
Original Registration Date in the EWG Final Report
is not the issue in my humble opinion. The issue
is whether it was recommended. And it was. Very
clearly. And for good reasons. Some of those were
specified in the EWG Final Report on page 132, and
illustrated in the annex thereto. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are many very important reasons why this
recommendation was being made from my perspective.
I'm not going to re-hash them. I am convinced that
the reasons why the EWG as a whole made this
recommendation would be best satisfied by the
counter and indicator of unknown or yes status. To
just focus on the technical reasons why they could
have done a better job defining the Original
Registration Date element as a justification to
dismiss the *importance* of the element on the
basis it was not required would be unfortunate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Domains may be registered and deleted
throughout the day literally within fifteen
minutes apart. Others who lose their domain
inadvertently and then want to use that original
registration date as a point of reference in
domain recovery should not lose that opportunity.
On the flip side, to be fair, someone who is the
subject of a UDRP deserves the opportunity to
point to the original registration date as
evidence the domain was allowed to lapse. When
valuating domain names for sale, it is important
that there be a public record that there may be a
cloud on the title. etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The fact that it's unknown there is a prior
existing registration is important information. It
let's people know that the creation date does not
mean it is the first time the string has ever been
created while at the same time letting us know
when we know for sure that there has been such a
prior registration in the future when deletions
are tracked. While technically that may be obvious
to us here, that is not necessarily obvious to
many who rely on Whois. So the fact it is set to
unknown serves a very important purpose.
Furthermore, when it is actually known, that is
vital information to provide (nobody said registry
operators have to gather historical data that is
burdensome or that some might not even have). I am
not convinced it is too much to ask registry
operators to keep track of deletions in the
future. Doing so may not be hard to implement and
would meet the recommendations of the EWG. Part of
the work we are doing here has to have long-term
vision and not just whether it is helpful in the
short term for our personal or commercial purposes
at hand. A lot of people in future generations are
counting on us.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The particular date is not as important to meet
the underlying objectives of the EWG in coming up
with this recommendation. I would also not dismiss
outright how this counter will eventually serve an
important function as an indicator of severe abuse
that is taking place behind the scenes that nobody
has easy access to see but can be in the future
would be more readily apparent from following the
EWG's recommendation in this regard (albeit,
interpreting their recommendation more liberally
to satisfy the policy considerations and purposes
they identified). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All of that said, I recognize and respect that
others may disagree on this. I would at least then
recommend that we ensure that the specific ID
number that must be collected anyway from an
engineering perspective is required to actually be
*displayed* to tenuously meet the objectives of
the EWG indirectly since its being exposed in a
protocol anyway by definition. While this is a lot
more work and not as helpful to many Internet
users as the compromised suggestion to meet their
recommendation, at least we have protection
assuming there are historical records as readily
available as today and that people can point out
the different object ID numbers for these strings
and explain what that means. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Okay, I'm moving on unless there is a group
that feels based on what I've said, that we should
at least re-visit briefly. I recognize that there
are *many* on this string with a lot more
experience than me and knowledge coming from
different vantage points, but feel it is important
to at least lay this out in case others agree, as
I wasn't on the call and couldn't chime in, in as
a timely manner for which I express my regrets.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Jonathan </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at
7:45 AM, Chuck <span><<a
href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">consult@cgomes.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I want to
request that any members who think there is
value in the 'counter'<br>
data element to please answer Paul's question:
" So the utility of the<br>
counter seems highly limited. Does it even<br>
deliver the usefulness that its proponents want
it to?" Please share what<br>
you think that value is on this list by Monday
of next week.<br>
<br>
Chuck<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Paul Keating<br>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 8:32 AM<br>
To: Greg Aaron <<a
href="mailto:gca@icginc.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gca@icginc.com</a>>;
Andrew Sullivan <<a
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>;<br>
<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed
Agreement for Original Registration<br>
Date<br>
<br>
And what is the intended purpose sought to be
achieved?<br>
<br>
On 9/21/17, 5:15 PM, "Greg Aaron" <<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
on<br>
behalf of <a href="mailto:gca@icginc.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gca@icginc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
>The upshot is that the counter would
probably start at "Unknown" for<br>
>all existing domains.<br>
>* Once implemented, the feature has little
usefulness until years in<br>
>the future, when some domains get
re-registered and those strings<br>
>accumulate some history.<br>
>* But many domains get renewed year after
year. Those wouldn't<br>
>accumulate counter history, and would be set
to Unknown either forever,<br>
>or for long periods if they are ever allowed
to expire and if they are<br>
>then re-registered. This is a significant
portion of domains. For<br>
>example .COM has an renewal rate of around
72%.<br>
><br>
>So the utility of the counter seems highly
limited. Does it even<br>
>deliver the usefulness that its proponents
want it to?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>-----Original Message-----<br>
>From: <a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
>[mailto:<a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan<br>
>Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 10:49 AM<br>
>To: <a
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed
Agreement for Original<br>
>Registration Date<br>
><br>
>On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 02:28:39PM +0000,
Greg Aaron wrote:<br>
>> The alternate proposal is a simple
marker that says whether there has<br>
>>been a known previous iteration of the
domain string, having been<br>
>>registered with a different ROID.<br>
>><br>
><br>
>Or a counter, of course, rather than just
the marker. From the point<br>
>of view of implementation in a database, I
think these two options are<br>
>approximately the same, so I prefer the
counter because it provides an<br>
>additional bit of data (that is, that the
domain is changing -- you can<br>
>watch it happen).<br>
><br>
>> And it still presents the same
operational problem: the registry has<br>
>>to figure out whether a string has
existed before. That is something<br>
>>registries are not designed to do. And
they may not have the<br>
>>necessary historical records. See the
notes below.<br>
>><br>
><br>
>Well, no, that's part of the point of the
new proposal: the registry<br>
>_doesn't_ have to figure that out, because
the counter can be set to<br>
>"unknown" (in a SQL database, you'd probably
use NULL). To support<br>
>this feature, however, the registry would
have to track deletions of<br>
>domain names in the future. So it wouldn't
be free, but it also<br>
>wouldn't be hard to implement. (Any real
SQL database, for instance,<br>
>could do this with an ON DELETE trigger.)<br>
><br>
>Best regards,<br>
><br>
>A<br>
><br>
>--<br>
>Andrew Sullivan<br>
><a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><br>
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<div dir="ltr">-- <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Jonathan
Matkowsky</div>
<br>
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