<div><div dir="auto">A lot of the issues that held up this group related to GDPR will be solved shortly in the months ahead well before implementation as we tackle— in the broader community—existing Whois in light of GDPR. Then, we’ll be able to learn from that when the legal analyses are completed (we are clearly in middle of this), to help us finally get to tackle how a next generation of Whois should be developed, if at all. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I look forward to getting more actively involved at that time.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Cheers,</div><div dir="auto">Jonathan </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:06 AM <<a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_4554405073498838384WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">This does not relate to our current focus on RDS purposes so I would request that we not continue this discussion thread at this time but I think it might be helpful to point out that some of many legal GDPR analyses that have been done emphasize the legitimacy of the “role of the cyber investigation /anti-abuse companies”. That said let’s hold off on discussing that until we start discussing legitimacy of the purposes.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Chuck<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_4554405073498838384__MailEndCompose"><u></u> <u></u></a></p><span></span><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maxim Alzoba<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 30, 2017 11:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> John Bambenek <<a href="mailto:jcb@bambenekconsulting.com" target="_blank">jcb@bambenekconsulting.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dutch DPA rules public WHOIS data is against the law. EU/NL<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_4554405073498838384WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi John, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I think we need to leave politics aside and turn back to RDS.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately it is not possible to say to Law Enforcement Agency or Bailiffs when they come to the office of one's company, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">that the person does not believe in the particular law and thus not following it and to expect good followup from them. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">(Example relevant to US - <span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">case no. 5:06-cr-00022-WTH-GRJ</span>).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Given the fines proposed by the particular GDRP law, Internet might go dark due to Registries & Registrars being fined to <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">the degree of bankruptcy (20M EUR is something very few of the DNS industry companies might survive), and it is worse than gated access to RDS as a future.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I do not think we propose total anonymity (the same Law Enforcement Agencies / GAC will definitely be agains it), <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">leaving traces of unique Registrant and domain ROIS will allow to make investigations and might <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">probably lead to necessity of the special "privacy disclosure procedure" for criminal cases.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">P.s: The bad thing is that GDPR does not recognise special role of the cyber investigation /anti-abuse companies , and to <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">say more it does not recognise the role of the non-EU Law Enforcement Agencies in their relevant countries outside EU either.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Sincerely Yours,<br><br>Maxim Alzoba<br>Special projects manager,<br>International Relations Department,<br>FAITID<br><br>m. +7 916 6761580(+whatsapp)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">skype oldfrogger<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Current UTC offset: +4.00 (Abu Dhabi)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 30, 2017, at 16:54, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <<a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My point was more practical than political (aside of the point that when governments talk about privacy, it is rarely if ever privacy from them who historically are the biggest human rights violators). Part of the reason the internet developed the way it has promoting openness and transparency is to be resilient against government abuse. A gated whois with audit trails will inherently allow less friendly governments to profile the activities of those working against them. For instance, I’d rather the Russian government not be aware of what specifically I am looking at while trying to counter their propaganda operations. <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Sometimes the best way to protect privacy is mot to create paper trails in the first place. <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">John Bambenek<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On Oct 29, 2017, at 23:13, Theo Geurts <<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi John, <br><br>You are correct, seems the politicians I voted for are shooting for a law that will give the Dutch intelligence agency far-reaching powers. <br><br>But this is a political process, and as political processes go, it is already opposed by a large majority of the general public here. <br>So we are going to enjoy the debate here in Holland for the next 6 months or so ;)<br><br>Thanks, <br><br>Theo <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 29-10-2017 22:51, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">Counterpoint before we start celebrating the Dutch approach to privacy: <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1408647" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1408647</a> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">John Bambenek<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On Oct 27, 2017, at 04:23, Volker Greimann <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Wow, this is harsh. Nothing unexpected though, as they are basically just telling you what we have repreatedly tried telling folks at ICANN for years.<br><br>This is why our work is so important. If we do not do it well, Whois will go dark! Not out of malice or because of any nefarious ill will, but out of pure legal necessity.<br><br>The abuse lobbyists may not like these legal requirements, but we will have to live with them and act accordingly. .Amsterdam did what they did because they had to, not because they felt like it.<br><br>Volker<br><br><br>Am 27.10.2017 um 09:08 schrieb Theo Geurts:<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/nl/nieuws/ap-onafgeschermde-publicatie-van-whois-gegevens-strijd-met-de-wet" target="_blank">https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/nl/nieuws/ap-onafgeschermde-publicatie-van-whois-gegevens-strijd-met-de-wet</a> <u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">Sorry, for now Dutch only, but Google translate will help out.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">Also, consent (Art 6.1b) is a no go according to the Dutch DPA. As it is not freely given according to the article.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">Theo Geurts<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br>-- <br>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<br><br>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<br><br>Volker A. 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