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<p>I do not think we will ultimately end up with only registrars
knowing who the customers are, however some contact methods may
not be possible for collection and display in external databases.</p>
<p>We observed as well that there is a correllation between low
domain prices and likelyhood of abuse, but that is not always the
case. Sometimes, bad actors do not care about the price of a
domain and specifically chose high priced domains for their
purposes to avoid the kind of blocking you describe, especially if
they have no intention of ever paying the registrar. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 28.11.2017 um 22:30 schrieb allison
nixon:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACLR7w+6gNWu_=5QxwMAcjOWb0rj1K1mqXZxWdm1bR=oo5Dweg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I do not believe it is off topic to consider the downstream
implications of the actions we take. It is of critical
importance!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When the WHOIS for .amsterdam and .frl became largely
obfuscated, I was not worried much about it, because the
extremely high cost of those domains precluded abuse from them
in the first place. For that reason, nothing happened.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the defender world, if we lose WHOIS as a reputation
factor, other reputation factors become much more prominent.
TLD blocking is very easy with the tools we already have, but
with the loss of WHOIS we are going to see a strong upsurge in
the demand for registrar level blocking. So, say Alpnames is
spamming a lot of people, and as an owner of an e-mail inbox,
I don't want to get any more e-mails from Alpnames customers.
Multiple of my colleagues at large networks have revealed to
me that in the past, they have done a registrar level block,
and the economic pressure on the registrars caused them to
clean up their act with an impressive amount of motivation.
It's something that most tools don't currently support, but
likely will in the future.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the registrars will be the only people who have any clue
who their customers are, I think we will see a strong shift
towards forcing those registrars to take more responsibility
for their pollution. This is something I am seeing
increasingly advocated in defender circles, so outsiders are
likely going to see the results of this in upcoming years.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With the direction I see things going, I believe that
anti-abuse will involve imposing economic pressure on
registrars. It's not unlike how notorious hosting providers
have been de-peered in the past due to abuse, and there is a
lot of legal precedent to support the legitimacy of this
strategy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, many of us outside the ICANN community don't see the
death of the new TLDs as a bad thing. More people are
interested in blocking them than supporting them. Companies
are also realizing that it isn't a good idea to run their
businesses on new TLDs. Some of us will cheer when they
finally go away. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, theo
geurts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gtheo@xs4all.nl</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Agreed Kris, <br>
<br>
Thanks, Allison, though this is, I guess, the cold hard
truth, selling domains dirt cheap or giving them away is
a sure method to poison a TLD, I think it is a separate
issue when discussing RDS. <br>
<br>
And the examples are clear, and at a point, such TLD
operators need to re-think their business model and act
accordingly to keep their TLD alive. <br>
<br>
So in May 2018, we will see a lot of use of the privacy
services due to the GDPR, I guess mostly at a Registrar
level, but let's not rule out that it might be on a
Registry level, the dynamics here are shifting day by
day. <br>
So my question here, and I hope we can discuss this in
good faith, but it seems to me that the WHOIS will be an
irrelevant factor when it comes to the risk/reputation
score?<br>
How does/will that play out? <br>
</p>
<p>And yes, this is not exactly related to our work when
it comes to RDS, but since we have the expertise here, I
think it would be useful to explore this a little more
even though off topic. I hope the leadership team allows
this to get a better understanding, for the community on
what is going down and might happen in a just a few
months here. <br>
</p>
<p>And if we need to do this offlist, sure, no problem. I
am just trying to get a sense to here to comply with the
law and keep a business running. </p>
<p><br>
Thanks<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Theo<br>
</font></span></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div class="m_8285952796659484416moz-cite-prefix">On
28-11-2017 20:57, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Full agreement on this point<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_8285952796659484416moz-cite-prefix">On
11/28/2017 01:30 PM, Kris Seeburn wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> As we move on …one way or
the other the GDPR and other aligned privacy laws
will catch up eventually. We will need to find
levels and technical ways and reasons to get
things to work. We move to RDAPis fine as we look
ahead but we should be able to not only look at
the laws that we need to respect but also to find
technical ways to get and make sure things still
continue towork. As this stage personally both are
as important.<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 28, 2017, at 23:15, allison nixon
<<a href="mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">elsakoo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_8285952796659484416Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Most systems operators are
not afraid to block entire TLDs. While
there are no scientific studies out on
this matter AFAIK, the help forums are
littered with people asking how to block
entire TLDs, and also registrants on those
TLDs asking why everyone is blocking them.
It's enough to conclusively say this is
already an issue, and we can thank abuse
for this.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In this Reddit post, a user learns
the hard truth about his brand new XYZ
domain:</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/6jq6f5/getting_blocked_should_i_abandon_my_xyz_domain/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.reddit.com/r/<wbr>webdev/comments/6jq6f5/<wbr>getting_blocked_should_i_<wbr>abandon_my_xyz_domain/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This article discusses Facebook's
block of all XYZ domains:</div>
<div><a
href="http://adamyamada.com/facebook-blocks-xyz-domains-new-domains-pages/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://adamyamada.com/<wbr>facebook-blocks-xyz-domains-<wbr>new-domains-pages/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This Malwarebytes staff member
explains to a legitimate registrant that
all .SCIENCE TLDs are blocked and he
gets no exception: </div>
<div><a
href="https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/173535-all-my-science-domains-blocked/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://forums.malwarebytes.<wbr>com/topic/173535-all-my-<wbr>science-domains-blocked/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In fact, the Malwarebytes "false
positive" forum is littered with owners
of hacked domains that discovered their
problem because of a block, not because
of a notification:</div>
<div><a
href="https://forums.malwarebytes.com/forum/123-website-blocking/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://forums.malwarebytes.<wbr>com/forum/123-website-<wbr>blocking/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This user asks for an 'Existing list
of garbage "new" TLDs' to block</div>
<div><a
href="https://vamsoft.com/forum/topic/597/existing-list-of-garbage-new-tlds"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://vamsoft.com/forum/<wbr>topic/597/existing-list-of-<wbr>garbage-new-tlds</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are 179 Google search results
for people asking Microsoft's help
service for ways to block entire TLDs:</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+i+block+TLD+site:answers.microsoft.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.google.com/search?<wbr>q=how+do+i+block+TLD+site:<wbr>answers.microsoft.com</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are 72,500 Google search
results for "how to block" "tld":<br>
<a
href="https://www.google.com/search?q=%22how+to+block%22+%22tld%22"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.google.com/search?<wbr>q=%22how+to+block%22+%22tld%22</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Internet is effectively "broken"
for any legitimate registrants on these
TLDs. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As a seller of some of those same
TLDs, should you be concerned if your
customers purchase domains rendered
useless due to blocking? </div>
<div>Would you actually refund a customer
if they told you they couldn't use the
domain for e-mail due to the TLD?</div>
<div>Would you warn your prospective .XYZ,
.STUDY, .PRESS, .PARTY, etc, customers
that they should not use the domains for
e-mail?</div>
<div>When ICANN releases new gTLDs in the
future, do you think that those domains
will ever be able to send e-mail?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Truly, the rest of the world will be
fine. The more that ICANN has the "not
my problem" attitude, the more the rest
of the world is going to push back.
ICANN seems to have lost the ability to
release new gTLDs without severe
connectivity issues, so we also need to
ask the question: "why are these guys
selling the digital equivalent of the
scarlet letter and not warning their
customers beforehand?"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think the question of selling
defective products is one that needs to
be addressed more seriously by
regulators and outside parties. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can also tell you that security
vendors are already looking into other
anti-abuse techniques for domains
post-WHOIS, and I can also tell you that
they will result in an increase in the
percentage of legitimate domains that
are blocked. This is your problem now. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 28,
2017 at 12:43 PM, Volker Greimann <span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Andrew,<br>
<br>
re:hotbed I was rather intending to
ask whether there is a direct
correllation between TLDs with
redacted whois and issues that go
unresolved. So do you have more
unresolved issues in .<a
href="http://co.uk/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">co.uk</a>
than in .com (if numbers are
normalized for registered domain
names).<br>
<br>
I am sure no one would consider
blocking the entire mail traffic
originating from the United Kingdom
Top Level Domain just because you
cannot resolve some issues in a few
domains, correct?<br>
<br>
So if everyone followed their (or a
similar) model, the internet would not
break. Some issues would get harder to
solve (or take longer). I am asking
because that is what most likely will
happen on May 25 or sooner.<br>
<br>
Volker
<div>
<div class="m_8285952796659484416h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
Am 28.11.2017 um 18:27 schrieb
Andrew Sullivan:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Tue,
Nov 28, 2017 at 04:31:56PM
+0100, Volker Greimann wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"> case
of internet operability
issues. While I appreciate
that there can be<br>
issues that would necessitate
the ability to quickly contact
whoever can fix<br>
the issue, I wonder how this
problem is solved in TLDs
where whois is<br>
already redacted.<br>
</blockquote>
It's not. In that case, if I am
the one who has this experience
and I<br>
can't reach the target, then the
problem goes unresolved. In
mail<br>
cases, as John suggests
elsewhere in this thread, the
answer is very<br>
likely that mail is blocked.
People seem surprised these days
that<br>
mail is so fragile, but this
sort of thing is part of the
reason.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"> So
how does it work there? Are
these TLDs hotbeds of DNS
issues and<br>
unresolved problems?<br>
</blockquote>
I don't know what you mean by
"hotbed", or whether that is
intended to<br>
be dismissive. Some TLDs
defintely have more DNS problems
than<br>
others. Given how hard the DNS
works to make connections happen
even<br>
when things are badly
misconfigured, lots of stuff
will work to some<br>
extent even when it is badly
configured. But DNS operations
people<br>
trade stories about problems
amongst themselves, after giving
up on<br>
sites because whois can't help
and the mname in the SOA record
is<br>
broken. I find this happens
more often than you might
expect.<br>
<br>
But yes, there are broken
domains on the Internet. I find
it hard to<br>
believe that would be even
slightly remarkable.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
A<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
-- <br>
</div>
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<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">_________________________________<br>
Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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